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Replies (21)
- Mack McCoy
- Contributions:1111
Well, I know you want him to pony up the $4000, and I assure you that's going to be extremely difficult to get him to do.
In my non-lawyerly view, you may not have a valid contract. A contract isn't supposed to be a "gotcha" document, it's supposed to be written evidence of an agreement between the principals, and your understanding is that the seller agreed to pay $4000 in closing costs and the seller has not agreed to to that.
I know you'd like to avoid paying for a lawyerly view, so I suggest these steps:
1. Call him again, and tell him you're not going to close without the $4000 in closing costs paid for.
2. Ask him to communicate to the seller, through the listing agent, that the intent of your offer was that the seller pay $4000 in closing costs, and that you want an addendum to the contract that provides for that.
- a. He won't want to
- b. He'll look for alternatives
- c. This is where you may be able to get him to pony up.
3. Pay for a lawyerly view.
All the best,
In my non-lawyerly view, you may not have a valid contract. A contract isn't supposed to be a "gotcha" document, it's supposed to be written evidence of an agreement between the principals, and your understanding is that the seller agreed to pay $4000 in closing costs and the seller has not agreed to to that.
I know you'd like to avoid paying for a lawyerly view, so I suggest these steps:
1. Call him again, and tell him you're not going to close without the $4000 in closing costs paid for.
2. Ask him to communicate to the seller, through the listing agent, that the intent of your offer was that the seller pay $4000 in closing costs, and that you want an addendum to the contract that provides for that.
- a. He won't want to
- b. He'll look for alternatives
- c. This is where you may be able to get him to pony up.
3. Pay for a lawyerly view.
All the best,
- wetdawgs
- Contributions:26790
There are some things that don't quite add up here:
buyer agent (agency Principal!) omitted "seller to pay $4k at closing" from my offer. Then why did you sign the offer?
Once accepted the agent revealed the ommission. Didn't you have a copy of the offer that you had signed?
I am not an agent, but recognize when I'm a buyer (or seller) I have a lot of responsibility to read and understand and agree with everything I sign. And yes, that includes proofing to make sure all details are correct.
You may wish to review your issue with a lawyer.
buyer agent (agency Principal!) omitted "seller to pay $4k at closing" from my offer. Then why did you sign the offer?
Once accepted the agent revealed the ommission. Didn't you have a copy of the offer that you had signed?
I am not an agent, but recognize when I'm a buyer (or seller) I have a lot of responsibility to read and understand and agree with everything I sign. And yes, that includes proofing to make sure all details are correct.
You may wish to review your issue with a lawyer.
- BrendaSomes
- Contributions:6
Thank you both for you input.
Mack, that addendum has already been submitted but there's no word back if the seller is willing to accept it.
I have since been able to learn there is a realtor board for the state and they have a program for discussing problems with agents. Don't know if they can help while the transaction is up in the air of if they can only look over things in the event it all falls apart.
Wetdawgs, there were a number of issues edited out of my post because I was exceeding the number of characters allowed. It still remains, yes, I missed it in proofing because page 1 was the financing certificate and the offer was correctly stated there, and knowing that was stated correctly, I didn't concentrate as closely after the top page. I was deliberate about hiring a professional buyer agent because I wanted a sharp, professional who would be much better writing up contracts than I would be. I guess a danger of the Docusign system is that it's very easy to not end up with a printed copy to reflect on after the fact.
Again, thank you both. We'll see what I can learn from the realtor board in the morning.
Mack, that addendum has already been submitted but there's no word back if the seller is willing to accept it.
I have since been able to learn there is a realtor board for the state and they have a program for discussing problems with agents. Don't know if they can help while the transaction is up in the air of if they can only look over things in the event it all falls apart.
Wetdawgs, there were a number of issues edited out of my post because I was exceeding the number of characters allowed. It still remains, yes, I missed it in proofing because page 1 was the financing certificate and the offer was correctly stated there, and knowing that was stated correctly, I didn't concentrate as closely after the top page. I was deliberate about hiring a professional buyer agent because I wanted a sharp, professional who would be much better writing up contracts than I would be. I guess a danger of the Docusign system is that it's very easy to not end up with a printed copy to reflect on after the fact.
Again, thank you both. We'll see what I can learn from the realtor board in the morning.
As a buyer, you have to SIGN every contract and addendum. If you signed it without the $4000 credit written on it, you aren't getting it.
While your agent should certainly follow your instructions, In the future, you might try reading important documents before you sign them.
While your agent should certainly follow your instructions, In the future, you might try reading important documents before you sign them.
- John Dietel, "MN Broker"
- Contributions:82
I know you hired an agent to represent you, and work in your best interests, a fiduciary.
It appears he has breached his fiduciary contract with you, and that may be actionable.
Your best bet is to speak directly, and calmly with the agent's managing broker, and ask for their help in resolving the issue. Be certain to bring all documents you may have as evidence. You can also speak with the local Board of Realtors, or Dept of Commerce, or whomever regulates real estate in your state.
BUT, you have to ask you how badly you want that home, and close on it with the current contract if need be, and then sue the agent for the $4k in small claims court. Here in MN, we carry "E&O," Errors and Omissions insurance for just such mistakes. Everyone makes mistakes, how they fix them is the big issue.
Good Luck
It appears he has breached his fiduciary contract with you, and that may be actionable.
Your best bet is to speak directly, and calmly with the agent's managing broker, and ask for their help in resolving the issue. Be certain to bring all documents you may have as evidence. You can also speak with the local Board of Realtors, or Dept of Commerce, or whomever regulates real estate in your state.
BUT, you have to ask you how badly you want that home, and close on it with the current contract if need be, and then sue the agent for the $4k in small claims court. Here in MN, we carry "E&O," Errors and Omissions insurance for just such mistakes. Everyone makes mistakes, how they fix them is the big issue.
Good Luck
- BrendaSomes
- Contributions:6
Thank you Roberto and John,
I am seeing opinions range across the spectrum. It is helpful for me to see how different perspectives on this can be.
John, this "agent" is the principal and owner of the real estate brokerage so there's no higher rung on the ladder. I am planning to call the realtor board to see what they suggest.
"Everyone makes mistakes, how they fix them is the big issue."
I agree completely!
Thank you all.
I am seeing opinions range across the spectrum. It is helpful for me to see how different perspectives on this can be.
John, this "agent" is the principal and owner of the real estate brokerage so there's no higher rung on the ladder. I am planning to call the realtor board to see what they suggest.
"Everyone makes mistakes, how they fix them is the big issue."
I agree completely!
Thank you all.
- Deborah Garvin, "loanmonarch"
- Contributions:438
I think the agents have done a great job of providing you advice on your question; however, I am totally amazed that your agent went directly to your lender AND the lender complied with his/her requests without, presumedly, talking to you. My (any mortgage professional's) complete fiduciary responsibilty is 100% focused (required by law) on you, not your agent.
No disrespect to any real estate professional meant; however, I can have, or disclose any information to anyone that my client does not authorize. If this has gone down as you indicate, your mortgage professional has (at the very least) over stepped their bounds.
I agree with the comments that, much to your dismay, you are accountable for reading the contracts and counters thoroughly; however, I also think both agent and mortgage professional pushed boundaries that are potentially very uncomforatable for their licensure. Best of luck to you.
No disrespect to any real estate professional meant; however, I can have, or disclose any information to anyone that my client does not authorize. If this has gone down as you indicate, your mortgage professional has (at the very least) over stepped their bounds.
I agree with the comments that, much to your dismay, you are accountable for reading the contracts and counters thoroughly; however, I also think both agent and mortgage professional pushed boundaries that are potentially very uncomforatable for their licensure. Best of luck to you.
- Alan May
- Contributions:4377
I know in the heat of the moment, because buying a house is a highly emotional thing, that it would have been easy for you to overlook the lack of the $4,000 from the seller. But ultimately, it is what you signed.
If you're still within the "review" period, you probably have the ability to do just what you've done... submit an addendum with your "original intent".
It's a shame that your agent overlooked the request, but even worse (in my opinion) that he tried to obfuscate and cover-up, instead of manning-up.
Every agent has a local board, and then state board that oversees our behaviour and it does sound like you have cause to engage them. Good luck.
If you're still within the "review" period, you probably have the ability to do just what you've done... submit an addendum with your "original intent".
It's a shame that your agent overlooked the request, but even worse (in my opinion) that he tried to obfuscate and cover-up, instead of manning-up.
Every agent has a local board, and then state board that oversees our behaviour and it does sound like you have cause to engage them. Good luck.
- Sharon Lewis, "Sharon Lewis"
- Contributions:3915
Did you sign the offer? Did you read it before signing? The onus is also on your for signing a document that didnt include what you wanted on it. Talk to the broker in charge of this agent, see if you can work something out to your benefit. Always, always read a contract before you sign it!!!
- Dan, "the_country_hick"
- Contributions:4693
What good is a realtor? The statements by 3 different agents above suggest the realtor has no responsibility to be sure you are signing what you thought you were signing and had no accountability for making this mistake.
Ethics? Added value? Where???
"you are accountable for reading the contracts and counters thoroughly"
"It's a shame that your agent overlooked the request"
"The onus is also on your for signing a document that didnt include what you wanted on it."
I keep seeing use a realtor to have your transaction go easier and protect your interests. Where does any of that fit in here?
Ethics? Added value? Where???
"you are accountable for reading the contracts and counters thoroughly"
"It's a shame that your agent overlooked the request"
"The onus is also on your for signing a document that didnt include what you wanted on it."
I keep seeing use a realtor to have your transaction go easier and protect your interests. Where does any of that fit in here?
Dan, you often have valuable insights, but on this one, your persistent anti-agent bias is clouding your vision.
The agent is supposed to " be sure you are signing what you thought you were signing..." ummm how? by reading the clients mind so the agent can verify the written words agree with what is in the client's head?
A number of options are discussed with a typical buyer before writing an offer or a counter. Then, the agent writes up the offer or counter, and the client reads it and signs it. There is an actual reason to write it up and send it to the client, to make sure that both are on the same page.
I don't care if you use a Realtor or not, you still have to read legal documents you are signing,
A number of options are discussed with a typical buyer before writing an offer or a counter. Then, the agent writes up the offer or counter, and the client reads it and signs it. There is an actual reason to write it up and send it to the client, to make sure that both are on the same page.
I don't care if you use a Realtor or not, you still have to read legal documents you are signing,
- Dan, "the_country_hick"
- Contributions:4693
Roberto, it sounds like in this case the buyer did not realize any change had been made. The realtor is supposed to look out for the clients best interests. If the realtor is supposed to be an expert in contracts should not the realtor have looked things over and pointed the change out that obviously the buyer missed?
"It's a shame that your agent overlooked the request"
To me that sounded like the realtor should have noticed the change and pointed it out to the buyer. Then the buyer could decide to accept, reject, or counter that request. A lot of buyers are not good at reading legal stuff. It gets confusing and hard to understand at times. I seriously thought that was one of the big advantages that realtors brought was the ability to look over the legal paperwork and advise on any changes and look at some issue that could cause.
The above was not intended to be portrayed as anti-realtor. It was intended to say the realtor messed up and there is no accountability for that realtor. That strongly suggests that the code of ethics needs some revamping. It also suggests that using a lawyer might be a better idea if a realtor makes this kind of serious mistake. At least if a lawyer screws up you have some recourse.
Maybe the contracts need to become as simple as they were in 1970. As I recall houses sold back then with simpler contracts.
"It's a shame that your agent overlooked the request"
To me that sounded like the realtor should have noticed the change and pointed it out to the buyer. Then the buyer could decide to accept, reject, or counter that request. A lot of buyers are not good at reading legal stuff. It gets confusing and hard to understand at times. I seriously thought that was one of the big advantages that realtors brought was the ability to look over the legal paperwork and advise on any changes and look at some issue that could cause.
The above was not intended to be portrayed as anti-realtor. It was intended to say the realtor messed up and there is no accountability for that realtor. That strongly suggests that the code of ethics needs some revamping. It also suggests that using a lawyer might be a better idea if a realtor makes this kind of serious mistake. At least if a lawyer screws up you have some recourse.
Maybe the contracts need to become as simple as they were in 1970. As I recall houses sold back then with simpler contracts.
- Mack McCoy
- Contributions:1111
Well, time's running out, so I suggest you bite the bullet and contact an attorney. Most of them will give you a free 10-minute consultation on the phone anyway, just to qualify you.
An attorney letter can often bully people into doing things that they know they should do but don't want to do.
The risk you take of waiting too long to resolve this is that you either close without the $4000 or you don't close and the seller claims your earnest money.
All the best,
An attorney letter can often bully people into doing things that they know they should do but don't want to do.
The risk you take of waiting too long to resolve this is that you either close without the $4000 or you don't close and the seller claims your earnest money.
All the best,
- Seth Captain, "CaptainSeth"
- Contributions:142
However you decide to implore the agent to get your closing costs covered, do not forget to file an ethics complaint with your local Board of Realtors. You can also do the same with your state's Department of Real Estate.
Naturally, you may have not disclosed everything, in which case, your agent wasn't at fault, but if your background facts are true, your agent should be fined, and only your action to call accountability will accomplish this.
Otherwise, I'm sure there are a few large men named Bruno traveling around Oregon who offer highly specialized debt collection services.
Naturally, you may have not disclosed everything, in which case, your agent wasn't at fault, but if your background facts are true, your agent should be fined, and only your action to call accountability will accomplish this.
Otherwise, I'm sure there are a few large men named Bruno traveling around Oregon who offer highly specialized debt collection services.
- hpvanc
- Contributions:2570
As a buyer signing an offer contract, BrendaSomes should have read it carefully and caught the mistake. However, the offer and the Mortgage Approval Letter not matching the offer contract should have been a red flag for the buyers agent, and something the listing agent and seller should have caught and questioned before signing it as well. I also think the agent was way out of line if they directly contacted the lender for an approval that matched the offer after the fact.
Unfortunately at this point it seems to me that it will require at least one attorney, and maybe a lawsuit to straighten out who has liability.
The lender providing a new letter to the agent without the buyers consent seems to me like an ethics violation and potential legal issue as well.
Unfortunately at this point it seems to me that it will require at least one attorney, and maybe a lawsuit to straighten out who has liability.
The lender providing a new letter to the agent without the buyers consent seems to me like an ethics violation and potential legal issue as well.
- BrendaSomes
- Contributions:6
Thanks for the levity, Seth. I think everyone here needed that.
I spoke with the realtor board and first they have an ombudsman program. Not quite sure what that means. Second, I was also told that the issues I described and can document in emails would instigate fines.
I'll report back on how things go.
I spoke with the realtor board and first they have an ombudsman program. Not quite sure what that means. Second, I was also told that the issues I described and can document in emails would instigate fines.
I'll report back on how things go.
Dan: I agree that the agent should be very very careful to try to do the best for their client, and may not have done such a great job in this case. We'd need to hear all sides to know for sure.
- Irene Dorang, "TeamIrene"
- Contributions:20
Hi Brenda,
I read through the entire thread above and wasn't able to tell if the $4,000 credit was something you and your agent actually discussed or if it was something that you believed he would know to include in the contract because it was in the pre-approval certificate - do you mind clarifying that?
I'm not saying that you don't have a valid case even if you didn't discuss it (that's for the legal experts to figure out), but I do think that if you and he did talk about it prior to the offer being written then things would probably fall more in your favor.
Thanks.
I read through the entire thread above and wasn't able to tell if the $4,000 credit was something you and your agent actually discussed or if it was something that you believed he would know to include in the contract because it was in the pre-approval certificate - do you mind clarifying that?
I'm not saying that you don't have a valid case even if you didn't discuss it (that's for the legal experts to figure out), but I do think that if you and he did talk about it prior to the offer being written then things would probably fall more in your favor.
Thanks.
- BrendaSomes
- Contributions:6
I tried pasting my exact email where I told my agent I wanted to offer and what I wanted to offer but I keep getting an error saying I've got HTML code in it and I need to correct that--- nothing I do evades that error message so I will retype verbatim the email I sent him authorizing the offer to be written:
"Hi ____,
I'd like to make an offer on (address). I had a chance to talk to a contractor friend for some ballpark price advice for what I'd need to do (add garage, and bump out master bedroom and add master bath) adn it sounds do-able provided I can get it on the shy side of what you are suggesting the comps. would indicate AND I don't use all my available cash on closing costs. (omitted 2 sentences regarding contractor's opinion that market is still declining)
What is your opinion of an offer of $___k with seller to pay $4K of closing costs?
If you don't have any notable cautions for me on such an offer, let's proceed with drawing it up."
"Hi ____,
I'd like to make an offer on (address). I had a chance to talk to a contractor friend for some ballpark price advice for what I'd need to do (add garage, and bump out master bedroom and add master bath) adn it sounds do-able provided I can get it on the shy side of what you are suggesting the comps. would indicate AND I don't use all my available cash on closing costs. (omitted 2 sentences regarding contractor's opinion that market is still declining)
What is your opinion of an offer of $___k with seller to pay $4K of closing costs?
If you don't have any notable cautions for me on such an offer, let's proceed with drawing it up."
- Mack McCoy
- Contributions:1111
Brenda, time's a-wasting. We're not going to be able to adjudicate this for you - what did your attorney say?
- Irene Dorang, "TeamIrene"
- Contributions:20
Thanks Brenda,
That seems pretty clear. I'm not a lawyer so I don't know how this will turn out from that standpoint - my personal opinion is that even though you are responsible for reading what you sign and being clear on it, you also are entitled to a reasonable expectation that your agent will act upon your requests - in WA state this is "with reasonable skill and care" - and between the two of you the agent is supposed to be the one more familiar with the layout of the contract and the language. But as Mack mentioned, our personal opinions don't count for much - I'm interested to hear how this plays out with the legal experts.
Anyway, thanks for clarifying and best wishes to you.
That seems pretty clear. I'm not a lawyer so I don't know how this will turn out from that standpoint - my personal opinion is that even though you are responsible for reading what you sign and being clear on it, you also are entitled to a reasonable expectation that your agent will act upon your requests - in WA state this is "with reasonable skill and care" - and between the two of you the agent is supposed to be the one more familiar with the layout of the contract and the language. But as Mack mentioned, our personal opinions don't count for much - I'm interested to hear how this plays out with the legal experts.
Anyway, thanks for clarifying and best wishes to you.
Buyer-agent realtor ethics
My buyer agent (agency Principal!) omitted "seller to pay $4k at closing" from my offer... the financing pre-approval certificate submitted with it was correct.
Once accepted the agent revealed the ommission but said he was "never advised of the $4k." I resent him the email where I clearly stated what the offer was to be.
His solution: increase my financing. I said "not an option." Next he had my mortgage broker alter the pre-approval to match his error. Next, I went to the mortgage broker and changed it back! I told the agent that he should contribute to the $4k. No reply. Then he sent an addendum for the $4k at closing. He's pushing me to pay for appraisals with no reply to the addendum back yet.
Suggestions to motivate him to take professional responsibility?
- Disgusted in Oregon
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