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Do I have to get a buyer's agent? Who else do I need without a buyer's agent?

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I mean, in King county, WA

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August 26 - Newcastle

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Mack McCoy
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You're welcome! How are things different in what part of Canada?

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September 07

Rayshir
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Thanks, everyone! Really appreciate all of your comments and time put into this thread.
At least I saw the conversation is going to a right direction, instead of just throwing me a strong statement of what I should or should not do. I went throught the whole home traction process twice in Canada, and I'd like to check what's going on here.

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September 03

Jeffrey Rainwater, "jrainwater"
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Well there you have it. I think we all have more than answered your initial question. Should you decide to use a professional, I guess it's just a matter of whether you want an agent that will disclose everything to you or one that will tell you only what they are required to tell you. It's pretty clear which ones here have which stand on that subject. Everyone here seems pretty knowledgable so I'm sure any would do a fine job either way but I encourage you to interview agents in person to see who you would work best with. Best of luck to you, whether you go it alone or with an agent.

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September 02

Roberto Ribas, "azrob"
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1. Yes, agents often do give out information they shouldn't. Don't tell your agent if you will pay more, or accept less. You shouldn't have to, and if you have the right agent, you don't have to, but play it safe.

2. In a dual agency, the agent cannot reveal many facts to either party. In AZ. we have a fairly specific dual agency disclosure form, that spells out what an agent can and can't do.

3. You cannot say "my services are free" without immediately saying you will be compensated by the seller. Read the darn code of ethics, its in there.[all the time on zillow, I see this]

4. Most buyers should have an agent. Not to be rude, but going against someone like me, or jk or many others, is not bright. Heck, even with a weak agent you are taking a chance. I've seen so many mistakes by both buyers and agents, and have seen it cost them large amounts of earnest money, or other costs they probably would have avoided, with better representation. If it not a dual agency, and you sign an "unrepresented buyer disclosure", well, I only have duties to the seller then! I only owe the buyer in that case, honesty and fairness, timeliness etc.

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September 02

Lady Chattel
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If that big mouth agent was mine who gave you that little bit of info, which seems erroneous but isn't, then I would be quite upset, it is little details or should I say holes that sink a ship/deal. I have watched and heard first hand agents talk behind their clients back to seal a deal, in fact I could probably find several HGTV shows like "Propert Virgins" that basically walk the viewer through a real estate transaction/negotiations. I almost fainted during one show when the agent gave a confessional to the camera and said some chit that should have her bound and gagged. They once showed the two agents on the phone and they most certainly broke their fiduciary duties and right there on camera, WTF! Watching those shows sealed the deal for me, that even if I do hire an agent to help me, I will only give them information on a need to know basis so that they don't in turn become my worst enemy and unknowingly work against me when they think they are moving along a deal by divulging information to the other side of the transaction.

On my house sale in 2007 withholding info was the smartest thing I ever did and worked to my advantage.

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September 02

NWHome.us
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First the correction of my previous post:In 1997 the fiduciary duties were replaced by statutory duties, so at this time the duties are statutory and are divided into 2 types; general duties to any party and special duties to the principal. JK has made my point quite well. In order to practice anything other than those special duties to the principal (buyer client in this case), one must withhold information. I don't keep my mouth shut when a listing agent tells me their client is really tired of holding their home open. That information goes immediately to my client. And I'll include an opinion of what I think seller frustration is worth to the value of the home? The point may not be to chisel at every turning but if you don't offer the option of knowing, and withhold the information, I feel that you are doing a disservice to your client. Transparency and as much information as possible are the only ways I can help buyers make informed and confident decisions about real estate.

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September 02

jkonstant
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OK, one more time. When you are acting in a dual agency capacity or as a transaction broker, you are not permitted to disclose confidential information about one party to the other. If a buyer tells me they will pay more than they are offering, I legally am required to keep it to myself. No different than the seller saying he might accept less. I cannot when acting in the capacities mentioned above disclose that either. I keep my mouth shut. Very simple.

Now that that is clear... When acting as a single agent with duty and loyalty to one principal, I am also bound to advise an unrepresented party that whatever they say, can and will be used against them. Honesty is required and I cannot milk them for information without first disclosing my relationship with the other party and how that could affect them.

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September 02

NWHome.us
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A quote from an article on the NWMLS when I searched for "procuring cause":
>>English humorist and science fiction novelist Douglas Adams (1952-2001) most likely was not referring to feuds between real estate professionals, but his comment seems to fit many situations that come before association arbitration boards:
"I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be." <<

I have a post on my own blog that includes a copy of the Law of Real Estate Agency; you might want to check it out to reach your own opinion of when the law of agency kicks into action. In section 7, paragraph 1 it pretty clearly says "The agency relationships…commence at a time that…." So, though our friend Ken would like to avoid the fiduciary responsibility, and may clearly speak for himself as to how he runs his own service, this discussion isn't about mo-fos, car sales, magazine sales, medical procedures or why you chose to go to the same barber every time but not the same REA; it is about real estate agency. And the silly thing is that it is written out in law.

As far as dual vs. buyer goes; you might pay attention to the differences of wording in Sec 5, par 1a and Sec 6, par 2a. It changes from "take no action …to the buyer's interests" to "take no action….to either party's interest." In my own opinion it seems pretty clear that as a buyer's agent I am much freer to do anything in my power to legally advance my clients interests.

Wei took me up on the referrals; anyone else?

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September 02

Jeffrey Rainwater, "jrainwater"
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I did want to address the comment on
"Most agents are transaction brokers that do not have a fiduciary responsibility to the buyer"

I can't speak for other agents but for myself, it's all a matter of who I represent. If I am the listing agent, then no I don't have any duties to the buyer as my duties are to the seller. If I am showing a home to buyers then its quite the opposite. If I am showing my buyers a home that I myself am the listing agent then I am a dual agent and I have to take a more neutral stance. I have not sold a home that way before but I suppose I might simply sit down with both parties over dinner and just hash out the details so everyone is happy. Might be easier said than done, I dont know. Essentially my point is, my duties are to MY clients. If you as a buyer want to make an offer on my listing and have no agent, I am straight up and honest with the buyer. Best way to word it might be something similar to...

"I am happy to help you write an offer on the home! I do have to tell you that I technically represent the sellers and their best interests, though. Here is an agency pamphlet you can read for more info on that. That's not a bad thing because the sellers may look favorably on the fact that you don't have an agent and might make your offer stronger. So as long as you know that my duties are to represent the sellers first and are ok with it, lets go ahead and write that offer up."

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September 02

Jeffrey Rainwater, "jrainwater"
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PS. about the 600 agents, I asked and our Bellevue office I guess only has about 400 now. A lot of agents left the business over the last two years, not just here but pretty much every company in the area. I now work out of our Everett office which is about 100 agents total including the ones who are part time, most of which work from home unless writing up a deal. We are really independant compaired to most agencies which is why so many agents flock to us in this area. It's 9:30am on Wednesday and currently there are only 4 people total in the office right now and I was just talking with my broker about a client 5 minutes ago. So yeah I get a lot of one on one time.

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September 02

Jeffrey Rainwater, "jrainwater"
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"Everything I have seen of JK indicates a pretty straight moral compass."

"Simply put, you keep your mouth shut and only disclose what you are legally required to disclose. I find that exceptionally easy to do."

I don't want to attack you personally but come on you're flat out saying that you hide stuff from your clients if you are not legally required to disclose it? Who wants to use an agent like that?

If a doctor who is going to do perform work on you doesn't disclose all the possible side effects....HEHEHE you knew that was coming. =)

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September 02

workabee
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Realtors are just like doctors. They surgically remove 6% from each sale and then demand you thank them for the service.

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September 02

Lady Chattel
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Otay folks, you heard it here, Ken has ratted you mo-fos out......

"Most agents are transaction brokers that do not have a fiduciary responsibility to the buyer"

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September 02

Ken Lowe, "NAPLESREALTY"
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You can elect to utilize a buyers agent but it is not required. Most agents are transaction brokers that do not have a fiduciary responsibility to the buyer or seller but honestly represent the property and the transaction.

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September 02

K101
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"Just wait K101 for them to liekn themselves to a Dr. performing surgery on you..."

LOL LC. How many times have we seen that here? That, and comparisons to practicing dentistry - too funny.

I recently bought a short sale through the listing agent under dual agency. I understood that the agent's loyalties were split. I also understood that he was the direct line to the bank and the source of all information concerning the deal. I further understood that the bank would see the lack of an additional buyers' agent with their hand out as a benefit when considering my offer since the bank and its investors know how to negotiate down commissions in such cases. My agent ended up with 3% (of which he earned every penny), though his listing agreement with the former owner provided for much more. However, I doubt that the bank would have permitted any more than 5% total (if that) if a buyers' agent had been involved, so it was actually win/win.

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September 02

jkonstant
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John Stewart/Jeffrey Rainwater:

Nowhere have I ever posted that a buyer's agent can not be beneficial. What gets under my skin are the BS comments that constantly claim how important buyer's agents are, often followed up with how free thay are and that listing agents work for the seller. Listing agents very well might work for the seller, but in a dual agency or transaction brokerage relationship they work for both. Perhaps agents who don't practice these forms of agency should get a better understanding of what they mean. Simply put, you keep your mouth shut and only disclose what you are legally required to disclose. I find that exceptionally easy to do. If I slash my commission to the benefit of the principals, who is hurt? Given my example, both principals got the better deal.

I do find it interesting though how my variable commission comments, and the fact that buyer's agency contracts include commissions paid by the buyer if there is no co-op or it's not enough are never answered by those who claim buyer's agency is free.

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September 02

NTETS, "Caveat Emptor"
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and re johns post below mine, i wholly recommend using an attorney in any real estate transaction, as a supplement to or a stand in for an agent... i feel they are unnecessary like the lot below me, but if you feel you need someone to show you 30 homes and make all the phone calls for you, that is fine. THAT, is what they offer that an attourney charges an arm and a leg for, their time.

anything relating to their "expertise" has nothing to do with their designation and everything to do with the person.

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September 01

NTETS, "Caveat Emptor"
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i have a mortgage broker in south king county and an appraiser who charges reasonably, an attorney, but if you clicked through to my profile you would find that i chose not to use any of the dozen or so REAs who darkened my door, i have one i would trust as a friend of a friend, but i have no experience with him personally

(he did give me SOME assistance, but as a favor to our mutual friend)

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September 01

NWHome.us
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PS
If you need a referral to 3 really good RE attorneys please drop me a line.

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September 01

NWHome.us
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It seems as though there are plenty of opinions on agency. I'm sure that that part of the question has been answered in terms that are clear as mud.
And I think that a couple of posts have indicated the players on the team. Now who is going to step up and make the recommendations?

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September 01

NTETS, "Caveat Emptor"
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A Good Buyer's Agent can recommend Lenders / Inspectors / Attorneys / Save You Thousands in Purchase Price with their knowledge of the market / Make sure you get Title Insurance / Termite Bond / The Best Home Insurance Policy.

just a note, REAs CAN recommend appraisers, mortgage brokers and home inspectors (or in the case of a crooked one i dealt with, offer to facilitate a general contractor to waste 100k + so that my home would rise to the standard of homes she liked to sell... this involved digging up a rhododendron bush and moving it roughly four feet and replacing my privacy fence with 12ft tall hedging)

but experience tells us that if you aren't referred by an agent, these professionals tend to work harder for your business. inspectors actually have incentive not to scuttle home sales with poor reports, if it means biting the proverbial hand that feeds them. i have never heard a REA recommend an attorney (out of house), and as was said before, if "any" Realtor can get you deal x, you can get you deal x. if only "the best" realtors would get you deal x, then you have to be informed enough to pick "the best." so then we get to the grey area of "where is the line between being competant to create fair offers yourself, and needing someone else to do it?"

my opinion is that you shouldnt NEED the REA standing next to you, you should WANT them. if you dont know how the process works, you will get taken for a ride.

"buyers agency is free to you" goes hand in hand with "you should offer 30,000 above asking because the market is hot right now" it is never the whole truth, period.

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September 01

Tiffany Bond, "TiffanyBond"
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Poor form Jeff. I guess that is what happens when you have 600 agents in your office...no one on one time with the broker. Everything I have seen of JK indicates a pretty straight moral compass.
Rob is sharp as a tack, but let me throw on - there will be less excise/transfer tax and lowered commissions on the lower dollar amount of the sale...so the net to the client would be greater than the 500 surface gain.
While we are discussing working in our clients best interests - it isn't all money. I have been a dual agent before and typically have given commission back to one or both sides so that everyone gets a fair deal. Many buyers and sellers don't want every single penny they can get and want other intrinsic. Some just want a fair deal. Some sellers would prefer to take a little less on a home if they feel the person buying it appreciates it as much as they did. Some people would rather lose a few thousand dollars and have everything go smoothly than be stressed out by the process. Some buyers would pay more to have someone who makes it a joy to move into their new home.
A good deal does factor money, but it also includes the process and the client's priorities in that process.

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September 01

Roberto Ribas, "azrob"
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Mr Rainwater, you might have a reading or thinking problem.

200k home, listing agreement 6%, cobroke 3%.

offer from agent $200K -6% = $188,000 net to seller before closing costs.
Offer direct to listing agent $195K, I and my broker agree to commission of only $6500, Seller makes $188,500

I can't see anywhere in his post were Jkonstant says he won't present both offers, but which one do you think the seller will chose?

Now, the math is simply for an example, assume those are best and final offers after all counters...

AND variable commission are allowed, that fact is generally on the mls sheet.

I see nothing in Jk's response where he says he won't try to get the seller the best deal possible.

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September 01

Jeffrey Rainwater, "jrainwater"
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Jkonstant should be ashamed of such shady practices. You should not be taking advantage of your sellers trust to accept a lower offer in an attempt to collect more commission. That's greedy and that is not doing what is best for your sellers. I don't know what states you all are in but in the state of washington, we have laws of agency. When Jkonstant says listing agents do not work for the seller, that should tell any seller to run from him fast and find another agent. When I sign a listing agreement, I am obligated to put my clients' interest (the sellers) FIRST, before the buyers, and before my own. By not accepting the $200k offer, you are putting your buyers at risk of loosing the deal. If I have to risk loosing a deal because I tried to pull a fast one and get more commission by doing a counter offer, that is NOT doing your best to represent your sellers. It would be their best interest to accept the higher offer and not risk the counter offer being on the table. In fact, even better would be to negotiate with BOTH parties and try and bid the price HIGHER. A good agent would take advantage of a 2 offer situation to get a higher price for their clients. Perhaps YOU represent your best interests over your clients' best interests but I guarantee you that is NOT most agents and that is NOT the law in washington state. If I have a listing agreement, then I work for the sellers, period. I will do whatever I can to get them the best deal. That's what I am supposed to do.

You mentioned buyers agreements. I'm not surprised you have to use them. By the type of business it sounds like you run, it wouldn't surprise me that buyers try to walk away from you. In Washington, it is not required to use a buyer's agency agreement. There is a use for it, certainly, but I have never had to use one. I treat my clients right so they have no desire to go elsewhere.

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Lady Chattel
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Just wait K101 for them to liekn themselves to a Dr. performing surgery on you.....LOL.

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September 01

K101
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"I like to compare using the listng agent to represent a buyer to going into court on a Federal offense and using the prosecuter to defend you; strick interpretation of the law rarely trumps opinion."

Sigh.

One can represent him or herself in court (pro se) without having the "prosecuter to defend" them. Foregoing a buyers' agent does not automatically mean that the buyer is depending upon the listing agent to represent them. There are plenty of savvy buyers out there that know better and can use the lack of an additional middleperson (buyers' agent) to negotiate a better price. JK is right.

Gotta love the constant legal analogies from the RE agents though....

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NWHome.us
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PS.
No you don't "have to get" a buyer's agent.
I'm a proponent of the Washington State Housing Finance Commission. This website provides a lot of information about the elements involved in purchasing a home, including the loan officer, the home inspector, the appraiser, the escrow officer, the title insurance company and the real estate attorney. They won't recommend any of these professionals but they put their roles into perspective.

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NWHome.us
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In response to JK; here's the example:
A client that I helped purchase earlier this year came to me over a year ago.
We worked closely together even though their search area was over an hour away for me to access. I wasn't part of the local click of agents who frequently believe that they have the only insight into what the property is worth.
The home that they settled on was assessed by the county at $467,000 and listed at $425,000. It wasn't a short sale or a distressed sale in any way. My buyers paid $385,000 for the home.
We were firm in our belief of the value as it compared to other properties that had sold in the last year and we were firm in knowing that we had a very strong offer (elements of a strong offer could be discussed....).
I don't believe that a seller's representitive (lisitng agent) could have justified that they were representing their client and taken that kind of hit on the listing and assessed values indicated for the home.
I like to compare using the listng agent to represent a buyer to going into court on a Federal offense and using the prosecuter to defend you; strick interpretation of the law rarely trumps opinion.

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September 01

jkonstant
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There are many false statements here. Check your state laws regarding "Agency" in real estate. A listing agent most certainly can work with a buyer and contrary to what has been stated above, they do NOT only work for the seller. There are various terms used in all states like dual agency, transaction broker, etc and then of course there is non-representation. Even if you buy a home unrepresented you are legally entitled to some protection under the law and you can rest assured the agent will assist you with arranging inspections and all of the other ministerial acts in real estate.

The claim that a "buyer's agent" will save you money is false. I have not yet heard of any example of how they do. Sure there are lot's of comments about how they "might", but for each one of them, there is no actual proof they will get a better deal for you than going directly to the listing agent.

Without going into a lot of detail, buyer agency is not free. If it was, they would not ask you to sign a contract that spells out their compensation. Then there is the growing use of "variable commissions" in listing agreements that lowers the commission if the listing agent bring the buyer. This leads to lower offers being accepted because the net return for the seller is greater if their agent brings an offer than your offer from your buyer's agent.

Finally, let me let you in on a little secret. If I have a house listed for $200K with a 6% commission (potentialy $12K) and you come directly to me to buy the house with an offer of $195K and another agent comes to me with an offer of $200K, I will lower the commission to sell it to you. In this case the seller's bottom line improves at no cost to me and the buyer has saved money and I have made a little more than if I had been dealing with a buyer's agent. Everybody wins.

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"Please, for me, get a buyers agent. They are FREE to you."

Bryan, as a "Pro" you should really be honest with people.Agents are never "FREE" to buyers. Agents are paid out of the purchase price proceeds that the buyer supplies. The buyer carries that cost as part of their mortgage and pays interest on it.The honest response would be - "Get an agent since you are paying the agents' commission anyway. You might as well make the listing agent split the commission with a buyers agent that will supposedly work to get you, as the buyer, a better price."

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Do I have to get a buyer's agent? Who else do I need without a buyer's agent?

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