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Do you think the first time home-buyer's credit should be extended?

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October 27 - US
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Has it helped the economy?  The answer is yes.  Home sales to first-time homebuyers increased by 25% in 2009, and now accounts for 50% of all home sales.  The tax credit has reduced some of the inventory of foreclosures that are sitting on the market, helping our neighbors and communities recover.  The extension of the credit to additional buyers, in addition to first time buyers, is a needed boost for the economy.

Real estate is a prime building block of the economy. Lenders and Realtors are certainly not the only sectors affected.  Appraisers, construction workers, builders, contractors, furniture stores, appliance stores, landscapers, title companies, advertising and marketing companies, the lumber industry, roofing companies, road workers, are just some industries directly affected. Congress took action to boost the confidence of potential homebuyers in the housing market, and make it easier for qualified buyers to get safe and affordable mortgage loans.

The NAR is the leading advocate for home ownership and private property rights, and believed that it is important for Congress to address the concerns and fears of America's families.  Housing is and has always been a good, long-term investment, and many a person's main investment. The NAR recommended that Congress extend the tax credit to all buyers of a primary residence, to significantly boost the economy. 

As a professional Realtor for many years, I work for the best interests of my client,  which includes offering honest advice and counsel.

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November 08
Profile picture for Melody91
Contributions: 211
Hello again-

What a discussion we have going!!!

And it sure DOES seem that the people who seem to be making the major decisions are the wealthy & have no clue (or do not identify with) what is happening to those who lose money with the market.

Whomever addressed Melody saying, 'there is no shame in renting,' I was not speaking about myself; rather, I was speaking about the younger couples and singles in their mid-thirties needing a break to get settled.
I also feel there is less stability in renting, as some people raise prices, though it seems to be a Renter's Market.

I am very concerned for the kids, meaning young adults starting out, whatever their job or occupation or job may be.  They've put their whole lives on delayed gratification...and only to find themselves without true housing, renting bedrooms in people's private homes, losing jobs worked for for over a decade, and no promise ahead.
We never had to face that.My true goal is that we all find a way for our rather troubled world to work better for all of us.

I am not the type who worries for myself only; that is not to say I am not suffering having lost more than was reasonable, nor that my children also do not share in that  I cannot contribute to them what I would have liked. It does hurt inside as a parent, though.

If the Powers That Be...make things work only for 'the HAVES' and for no one else, then it further escalates the historical gap between the social classes & the educational inequities or opportunities/and lack of same, open to their children....who are the next generation and ARE the future. They are feeling it, and it adds ti the pressures they live with in growing up, which we did not have to face! That IS INDEED sobering. 

I believe in some ways, both the War & the Madoff fraud scandal (however that was allowed to occur) are coming out of the pockets of those who can afford it least...like most of us now and in the foreseeable future.  Does anyone else see it that way, or are there other variables I have over-simplified in trying to wrap this up?

Whoever said people ought not to live beyond their means, that has always been true; yet never more true in recent history than now!
Yet, as the last person pointed out, by saying still right now, our equity is being lost while at the same time property taxes and assessments on Condos are escalating to beat the band, (on the older buildings) which abound here.

This somehow developed a thread of its own beyond the initial 'should the tax credit to 1'st time buyers be extended.?'

I am not sure where we should go with this from here other than to start a new thread, if there is such an interest. Good luck to all!


We did not get such breaks; yet things were not as tough either for many of us a while back.

I personally think if you want to up-size this might be a time as there does exist , I think it is called , a 1031 EXCHANGE; so you do not have to pay taxes on potential profits.

HERE, it is upside down; MAYBE legislation ought to be passed giving REAL breaks to people who have lost. My only fear is we'll pay for it some where else, unbeknown st to us, and unlabeled.
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November 11
Profile picture for MacPenguin
I'm against this whole idea because I think it's a poorly targeted plan and a waste of money. Of course, as someone who's owned a home for just over 4 years and is so upside-down that I couldn't move up now if I wnated to, it's not a benefit to me. I've got my own mess to deal with, why should my money help other people buy houses? The only thing I'm hoping for is that this will increase the value of homes in my area, so that I can sell for what it's worth, not what the short sale homes all over the neighborhood are selling for. Many of you don't want to "prop up" home values, and I do. I'm not asking for over inflated prices, I just want the rediculously low-priced short sales off the market so that I may sell for a decent price within the next year or two. Of course, if prices go up too high then I won't be able to afford a new, larger home.
I see what some of you are saying about home prices that are out of reach, but that is not at all what is happeneing in my neighborhood. If it were the case, I'd sell right now and move up to a larger home right now. I think the tax credit is a waste. I think extending it to current home owners is even more of a waste since $6,500 doesn't mean anything to those who have already lost tens of thousands on their homes. I think house prices are so low you don't need an $8,000 incentive to buy.
But, since it was passed, I'm going to sit here and pray that it raises the value of homes in my area...funny how we all have a different perspective.

Couldn't they have offered this to first-time homebuyers who were buying short sales and forclosures? Wouldn't that help the banks get more money back and still help first-timers get a good deal, but also help the rest of us get some of our value back?
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November 11
Profile picture for jkonstant
Real Estate Agent
Contributions: 1499
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Since May 2009

Agreed Sunnyview. Melody, the answer is simple when discussing the topic of buying a home. Don't. For some reason many people feel incomplete unless they own a home and risk far too much reaching for it. There is no shame in renting, there is no stigma attached to renters and there is no need to own a home.

So why do we want to buy a home. Is it to impress ourselves or others? If we would just sit back and take a long realistic look at the fact, we would conclude that ownership is not only unnecessary, but very risky. Renter's can still decorate for the holidays, have friends over to watch the game and do just about anything else an owner can do. In fact, the mobility options for renters outweigh those of owners. Again, renters are good people too.

If somebody wants to own, fine, I am happy they want to own. I'm happy they desire more for themselves. I want lots of things, should they be given to me? Should I be encouraged at the expense of others to get them? I have been shopping for boats and eyeing some priced in the mid to upper 20K's. We've had cash for clunkers and several home purchasing tax incentives. Why not for those who wish to buy a boat? I mean we can use the same ridiculous argument that more jobs will be created and money will enter the system if more people are encouraged to buy boats. Where does it stop?

I sold a home in October 2008 and purchased another in March 2009. No tax incentives were involved, credit was tight and still it happened. It happened because those involved had done what they should have done. They saved and purchased what they could "easily" afford and without the help from somebody or something (taxpayers) who could not afford it.

Charity begins at home, not in Washington.
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November 10
Profile picture for sunnyview
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Since January 2009

Dirty pool picking two of your 5 posts for best answer here. If you already have the answer that you want, why even post the question? I also have to disagree with you when you say that the "NAR is the leading advocate for home ownership and private property rights." 

The NAR did nothing to ring the alarm bells as the bubble built, did nothing to counsel homeowners about the dangers of ARM's and has done nothing to advocate for underwater homeowners. I would expect much more from an organization that you call an advocate for home ownership.
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November 09
Profile picture for loansbytracy
Contributions: 445
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Since November 2009

To answer the question - YES!
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November 09
Profile picture for Melody91
Contributions: 211
"Hello & I happen to agree with you on many of the good questions that you raised!

Please know, I am not THE enemy; just a regular hard working ethical citizen trying to survive this somehow 'fiscal instability or debt of insanity' thrust upon us and upon the younger generation, & those yet to come...all completely innocent of its history, yet prey to its domino effect.

FYI: I do not possess the answers. AND if I did,what is the likelihood I would be listened to?

AT this point, with taxes on homes going up astronomically, as costs of maintenance increase exponentially, as well as for heat & electricity, while values shrink...I , like the rest of us, am trying to figure out a strategy of survival, and someday, to what I call 'thrival,' which I sincerely wish for all of us.

The scenarios you presented, just as I presented the humdinger of which I knew first hand, also are not fair!

Pray tell, what is the answer? 

My now less than optimistic take on this is that unless a  strong lobbying group rallies for it...we shall continue to carry such burdens; &  sadly watch the younger generation deal with this, & to whom we are asked to explain this mess. How do you answer those people?

Your polite candor is much appreciated.

I end with my now Credo, "Everyone deserves fairness under the law. ALL!  (HOW to reinforce this brings more complicated answers...
Uh-Huh!)
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November 09
Profile picture for jkonstant
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Contributions: 1499
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Since May 2009

"Everyone deserves fairness under the law. ALL!"

Does fairness include taking from me and giving to you. To make matters worse, is it fair that you don't get everything that was taken from me because of the cost of this redistribution. Or is it fair that our future will be saddled with debt it cannot possibly pay. What will your yet to be born grandchild do when a yet to be born Chineese child comes asking for the money he is owed?

I'm not some heartless constitution waiving right wing nut job. I too have witnessed, firsthand, the unfortunate circumstances that have devastated the lives of honest and hard working people. I just find it disturbing that our good intentions fail time and time again. As a nation we have lost our way and our politicians have bankrupted us by trying to build the "better mouse trap" instead of letting us do it ourselves. If somebody is hungry, is it better to teach him or her to fish or to give him or her a fish? While the answer is simple enough, our government then steps in and mandates that it takes three people to teach and 5 to administer the process.

We simply cannot afford it anymore.
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November 09
Profile picture for Melody91
Contributions: 211
 Hello again-

To all of you who think I was advocating for a 'free-ride' to entitled folks- I am not.

You also have your own biases & lenses through which you see Grad Students: Not ALL Backpack through Europe...Some have worked every summer, 3 jobs at a time, to help pay for tuition & books.

The real difference is whether one chose a practical field for THIS economy.
I agree about the Trash Men and the Grad Students...many of whom did similar jobs even while in Grad School.

Also, we are ALL naive, until a huge inequity happens...like a friend of mine had Home destroyed & they had worked their entire lives.
The Insurance Co. was 'always about to put a check in the mail.'

To end the horrid story, after helping many people FOR FREE, pro bono, in his career, he found he'd cash flowed a Bankrupting Insurance Company! That was discovered 3 years into the rebuilding. He had the ability to do so from inheriting a grandparents' home he sold to support his many life challenges, which include some possible terminal illnesses.

Even his IRA & Keogh had to be cashed in early; AND he is in danger of losing the home he established for his children.
He also needed (almost costing him his life) to borrow moneys from a charity for his expensive medications...

None of us wish that on anyone.

Not ALL processes work fairly here- of which MOST of us are totally naive, unless we have such an experience, or someone close has.
Our friend literally "paid his dues from the time he was a kid, and then his entire career" and has been hood-winked out of all he had by a corrupt Insurance Company that had been kicked out of his State and changed their Name and came back A few MORE TIMES, each time with a new name.
How is this LEGAL? Even Lawyers were inexperienced in this.

FYI: Our friend's eldest got out of Grad School & cannot find a job, as it is not a required course, and his eldest did spend a Year in the Peace Corps. He has not had even a week off for a mini-vacation in close to 6 years, and also has health challenges.

Of course there are people worse off.
Still, this fellow has no income or benefits soon, & this also is not fair.
This economy has many people unable to pay college tuitions; so Universities are not having as full classes. The Domino Effect is Real.

Almost everyone is suffering in this economy; yet justice must also be served! No one ought to be close to bankruptcy being duped (somehow Legally?) by their Insurance Company.

Please let us refrain from making a list of HAVES & HAVE-NOTS...and stop the generalizations which do not apply to all. Some of the ineptly applied generalizations can become a form of sterotyping towards discrimination. I do not think anyone here wants to encourage that!

Thanks for letting me share why two of the replies seemed rather provocative to the point of insensitivity. Please consider, sterotypes are JUST that...fantasies of accumulated hypothetical situations which are then generalized to an entire group of people, which is NOT necessary applicable to many, all or most. There is a danger with stereotypes- They lack historical context (even current) & can lead to unfair or slanted conckusions...and, ergo discrimination.

I do not think that is what anyone here desired to convey. Meanwhile,
thank you for letting me share why two of the replies seemed rather provocative, to the point of insensitivity.

Everyone deserves fairness under the law. ALL!
   
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November 08
Profile picture for country_hick
Contributions: 84
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Melody, "Just curious as to why you would essentially financially 'punish' someone who has invested a lifetime of study and gone into full debt, usually likely to help society in one way or another, from being first time buyers?"
Anyone who goes into debt is in one of 2 categories.
1 good debt. It gets you something that makes sense that will pay you back usually with interest. Examples include student loans as long as the job will pay for the debt and more. A car so you can get to work to earn money.
2 BAD debt. Buying pizza on a credit card because you can not pay for it with cash. Getting a loan to go on vacation.
There is no such things as "helping society" People choose jobs for many reasons. Some are personal. "I want to do this" Some are financial "It pays well" some are combinations. People do jobs that pay enough to justify the training required for that job. No one I know works for free. That is the only way that society would be served. FREE labor. But we need to earn money to live in this country.
I do not believe in making programs targeted to certain minorirues. That includes income, job type, age, disability, and so on. All people should face life with the hand they have. They should not expect someone else to bail them out because they have some problem in life. It is not fair.No one should get favor because they suffer from something. We all have problems. I myself fit in at least one of the categories you listed. But do not want to be considered special for it. Let me compete with everyone else. No special treatment is wanted or needed. The government policies of the past decade have hurt me terribly. I could ahve bought a house many years ago without the policies that created the housing bubble. Give me a chance. Let prices fall to reason once more. Please give me a chance to buy a house of my own. No more interference with the opportunities I should have had but the governemnt took away with their policies that ironically enough were supposed to help me.

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November 08
Profile picture for jkonstant
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Contributions: 1499
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In simple terms, please. Explain why I should subsidize your desire to own something.

Why should my trash man (or whatever progressive and politically correct/better classification) who makes $15/hour working a hell of a lot harder than some career student who has spent the better part of his or her young adult life being indoctrinated by those who quote Che, Chavez or Gore be forced to further sacrifice the future of his children so that the career student, who has spent summers backpacking through France, can buy shelter. For the record, my "trashman" works weekend cutting grass, trimming trees, etc all year. He did so this summer, here in Florida, while all those society helping, entitlement minded, academics visitng Paris or the Cote d' Azur, sat around sipping coffee, wine or whatever. These same bright minded students then come back home and tell us how much better it is over there without any respect or understanding even as to why "over there" is even in existence today nor do these young Americans have a clue what it is really like to be born, raised and try to make it over there.

Enough with the entitlement mentality at my expense.

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November 08
Profile picture for Caveat Emptor
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i would financially punish anybody who would trade unsecured debt for secured debt or go into even more debt without a damn good reason to do so. degree or no degree.

i'm confused what part of my last statement should be interpreted as a punishment... if you think i'm egging on the recession, or the circumstances in cali, think again... i just think PhD candidates should have a modicum of wisdom to go with their specialized knowledge. that means you save up a down payment and wait for your financial system to stabilize before paying 15,000 in transaction fees to purchase a large depreciating asset that essentially anchors you in one place when you may need the flexibility to relocate.

but hey, i am right where you are. dont worry. eventually you will pay off your debt, save some money. just dont rush into what will probably be the single biggest financial transaction of your life in the first trimester. you arent as old as you feel.
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November 08
Profile picture for Melody91
Contributions: 211
Just curious as to why you would essentially financially 'punish' someone who has invested a lifetime of study and gone into full debt, usually likely to help society in one way or another, from being first time buyers?

If you think they will all end up as 'rich academicians' nothing could be further from the truth. The State of California, for one, is furloughing (laying off) their new doctorates into unemployment and NO Health Benefits, in favor of hiring less trained/experienced MA level teachers (and lower salaried)...and this is growing.

After a lifetime of delaying spending and gratifying their needs, with heads buried in study;being Teaching Assistants, madly grading 100 papers at a time with no rest for the weary, & preparing their OWN papers for submission; also with huge education debts hanging over their heads, WHY would you choose to be harder on this Group than ANY others? I have no idea & would appreciate a cogent and courteous answer when you can.  Many thanks-
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November 08
Profile picture for Caveat Emptor
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you have a goofy definition of simple.

my definition of simple is that the entire tax code should be reduced to about 20 pages and from there should be permanently indexed to inflation, congress should be bound to revenue and barred from monkeying with it in the future.

also, i'm one of those people who thinks grad students who dont have a full time job are one of the last groups of people who ought to be incentivized to buy a house...

0.02
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November 08
Profile picture for Melody91
Contributions: 211
As someone aptly pointed out, it is not what we think; rather what is passed as law.

My personal opinion is that it ought to be truly SIMPLIFIED:
  To me, that means certain criteria ought to be fulfilled; such as:

A. First time home-buyers still with Student Loan Debts;
B. First time home-buyers  in the lowest socio-economic classes; such as regular folks or even grad students who've not yet had a full time job with benefits, due to this grim economy;
C. People who have served in any of the wars, & not had time to put down roots;
D. People with Disabilities & Handicaps who also need a break in this troublesome economy...

It ought to be on a case by case basis, and to help those who need it  most and truly need this break.
That will ALSO stimulate the economy, as NO ONE likes everything the way it is...Paint, Rugs, Curtains, etc. are always needed to make one;s place feel like one's own; PLUS the workmen they'd likely need to employ to help them with this.

Does THIS simplified version make sense to anyone, and/or, are there possible categories I may have inadvertently excluded?
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November 08
Profile picture for country_hick
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It was just extended. To answer your question I am no longer in the market. Once this bribe dies and prices drop I will consider buying then.
I saw where about 1/3 of the irs applications for it were being looked at for fraud.
We have 2.7 million foreclosures now.
We have 7 million foreclosures coming from 2010-2013.
We have 10.2% unemployment. That is about 15.6 million unemployed people.
We have tighter credit standards.
FHA is having financial problems. They have over 8% defaults and a lot lower reserves.
Fannie may is now renting houses to those who did not pay their mortgages. At prices perhaps 50% or less than the mortgage was.<call me confused>
The federal reserve is going to stop buying mortgage securites.Who will?
We have house prices greatly out of reach of the average incomes.
We have government debt getting so high it is beyond comprehension.
We allowed people to buy houses using the $8k bribe for a downpayment.
We went nuts.
We lost sanity.
We passed this fraud laden bill again, or our reps in D.C. did.
I do not think it should have been passed. But every realtor with few exceptions says it should. A NAR rep said this last extension would be enough and they would not ask for it again. Does anyone want to place a bet on that? Come april they will be begging for it a third time.
We need to let prices go where they want to go. Stop the fraud, both in the applications for this profram and the fraud in the program itself. Fraud that is trying to make people buy something that is know to be overpriced and will likely cause mroe foreclosures in the future.
With all of the above being true why would a $8k offer get me to buy today? For me, it makes me wait longer to buy.
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November 07
Profile picture for jdsdaddy
Contributions: 504
Isn't it funny how so many agents can look back on the bubble and point out with great certainty and authority its causes, such as lax lending and artificially low rates, yet back then most of them were without doubt hailing these same factors as a benefit to buyers, sellers and the entire economy in general.

Presently we still have those artificially low rates combined with government intervention on an unprecedented scale with the goal of keeping housing prices higher.  And the reaction from agents is so predictable.  It's kind of sad and funny at the same time.  History is a great teacher, but so many are too greedy or dumb to learn from it.
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November 06
Profile picture for jimmy57
Contributions: 1470
No surprise, that many REAs like this program: it's putting money in their pockets.

And where's that money coming from (or, who will be called on to make up the revenue shortfall from these credits)? The answer is ALL taxpayers -- including homeowners who didn't get any personal benefit from these credits, and renters.

It's an illusion that buyers won in this program; they were simply enticed to buy, at still-inflated prices, in a weak housing market, in a struggling economy. There's every reason to believe that prices were propped up by something close to the amount of the credit, and that sellers and their salesmen simply took a heapin' helping of their fellow citizens' money.

Is the value of a your new house $8000 greater because you got a tax credit when you bought it?   Of course not.  The next buyer won't be getting the credit, and they'll just want to pay that much less.
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November 05
I conducted an informal poll with my Twitter friends and what I found is that the tax credit did not cause someone to buy a home. However, what it does is provide money to new homeowners that can and is used for improving the home which serves to stimulate local economic activity. Basically it puts people to work which is a good thing.
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November 05
As an accountant,  the 8,000 credit has been one of the best  if not the best and most effective measure to stimulate the economy and prevent this country from getting into an even deeper recession, that came out of the Obama Admin . And,until this economy is healthy enough, the credit should be extended, but only and ONLY  to NEW and FIRST TIME home buyers. That will activate the financing markets and maintain a lot of people working. However, the credit should NOT be applied to homeowners that have been in their homes for the past 5 years  because that is a total waste of money.
We can't afford to give money away for the  past because the past is past and cannot be changed. We should come up with measures to stimulate the present and future economy, but not the past.
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November 05
Profile picture for CORONA NICK
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Since October 2009

Nah.... Bird brain. lol  jk
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October 27
Profile picture for Pasadenan
Contributions: 6699
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Since January 2009

It doesn't matter what I "think".  The congress people and other elected officials NEVER listen to me, and do what ever the "big money" tells them, no matter how much I write, how many times I call nor how many public meetings I attend and speak at.

Well, not "quite" true, they can't really "ignore" me even though they try to give that appearance; but it takes 2 to 5 years from the time I tell them to the time it sinks in for them to understand what I said.

Not to mention, after saying things enough times in enough forums, there are other people that start repeating what I said in a manner more palatable to the politicians, and with more "money" at stake.

Besides, Jimmy is right, but that won't stop the politicians.
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October 27
Profile picture for jimmy57
Contributions: 1470
No.

I'm waiting to buy (ready with cash anytime), and even though I would qualify for this credit, I believe it should be ended ASAP.

1) It's an abuse of taxpayer money. Even though, naturally, the NAR wants it to generate commissions, it will sucker in the most naive of buyers (to their future grief, and adding to more foreclosures down the road) .  To the extent the incentive "succeeds," it is mainly just stealing from future demand.  Like Cash for Clunkers, it is taxpayer money being diverted to a (lobbying) industry.  Buyers, in any case, aren't really getting the $8K: some or all of it is going to sellers and REAs  who are simply baking it into a higher sales price--  the buyers having been simply tricked into borrowing more.

2) It's delaying the reset of housing prices to pre-bubble levels.  Buyers like me will simply stay on the sidelines until the interventions end and the market allows prices to re-align with incomes.  Tax-credit bribes and 0% interest Fed rates mean all house prices are artificially inflated, and therefore it's a bad time to buy.

3) It allows politicians to appear to be doing something helpful, when they should be doing something else (or perhaps nothing at all, in some cases).
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October 27
 

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