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Answers (30)
- Pasadenan
- Contributions:21424
Another hint -
Turn off images in your browser; when looking for text, all the images do is slow you down and clutter your cache.
Turn off images in your browser; when looking for text, all the images do is slow you down and clutter your cache.
- mikes101
- Contributions:2
Thank you Pasadenan
- Pasadenan
- Contributions:21424
Hint: ZPID numbers for the bulk of properties originally input are consecutive for each area; those added later are higher numbers, assigned just based on the next available number.
- Pasadenan
- Contributions:21424
There are a few threads on that topic (use the search; some of the threads have specific details for sample methods). The answer is "yes and no". The "solution" is scripts or batch files. But Zillow has a user policy of "no robots"; so there is a fine line of what can be done within their terms of use, and Zillow cannot endorse any "automated" collection methods from their site as it violates their agreements with their data providers.
You can also set up the auto e-mails for multiple sites/properties; but this could be a real mess to process. (E-mail filters could help).
And if you set up a public website that properly references Zillow and makes the data available on the website, you can use the Zillow API's to customize what you provide to others; but you can't get permission to use the API's on a private computer, and the API's are often more cumbersome than just using Zillow URL addresses with parameters, and parsing Zillow's standardized pages.
I used to just look in the browser cache for web pages viewed; but something went wrong with the cache formatting when I changed operating systems and browser version.
You can also set up the auto e-mails for multiple sites/properties; but this could be a real mess to process. (E-mail filters could help).
And if you set up a public website that properly references Zillow and makes the data available on the website, you can use the Zillow API's to customize what you provide to others; but you can't get permission to use the API's on a private computer, and the API's are often more cumbersome than just using Zillow URL addresses with parameters, and parsing Zillow's standardized pages.
I used to just look in the browser cache for web pages viewed; but something went wrong with the cache formatting when I changed operating systems and browser version.
- mikes101
- Contributions:2
Is there a way to get multiple Zestimates in batch format - in other words, without having to manually input addresses?
I invest in real estate in certain areas and I like to track multiple (hundreds) properties for trend analysis. I looked into pay-per systems, but they are too expensive for the basic research/tracking that I do.
Any thoughts would be appreciated.
I invest in real estate in certain areas and I like to track multiple (hundreds) properties for trend analysis. I looked into pay-per systems, but they are too expensive for the basic research/tracking that I do.
Any thoughts would be appreciated.
- Pasadenan
- Contributions:21424
HNC's relationship with RealQuest (First America CoreLogic) since 1997
And First America charges, $50, $80, or $150 per month per user for access to their data, software, and automated valuations using various methodologies.
No wonder they are upset; If Zillow and Cyberhomes provide similar access to public records data and "guess" on residential property values, and public data on recent sales; why will most people want to pay $50 to $150 per month for access to similar public records data?
And First America charges, $50, $80, or $150 per month per user for access to their data, software, and automated valuations using various methodologies.
No wonder they are upset; If Zillow and Cyberhomes provide similar access to public records data and "guess" on residential property values, and public data on recent sales; why will most people want to pay $50 to $150 per month for access to similar public records data?
- Pasadenan
- Contributions:21424
And again, there is no reason to bash HNC Inc. (San Diego) for the patent they own and any applications they have for their patent. Nor Allen Jost; (San Diego, CA), Jennifer Nelson; (San Diego, CA), Krishna Gopinathan; (San Diego, CA), nor Craig Smith; (Seattle, WA); who "invented" this "automated valuation system" and wrote the patent in question. First America, apparently a licensee or closely related affiliate of HNC has a specific purpose for needing automated appraisals as compared to a traditional individual manual appraisal, and that purpose is entirely different than the purpose of automated estimating websites.
As a banking agency, their issue is loans, the viability of loans, making sure their is sufficient assets for loans being made, and making sure they know their negotiating position when considering modifications.
For new loans and refinances, it is in their interest for the automated appraisals to be low; which seems to be the case for Core Logic's website referenced by Vince.
For modifications, it is in their interest for the automated appraisals to be high to avoid giving away more concessions to keep someone paying then necessary.
I have no doubt that they have different implementations of the software depending on the intent and specific application.
As a banking agency, their issue is loans, the viability of loans, making sure their is sufficient assets for loans being made, and making sure they know their negotiating position when considering modifications.
For new loans and refinances, it is in their interest for the automated appraisals to be low; which seems to be the case for Core Logic's website referenced by Vince.
For modifications, it is in their interest for the automated appraisals to be high to avoid giving away more concessions to keep someone paying then necessary.
I have no doubt that they have different implementations of the software depending on the intent and specific application.
- Pasadenan
- Contributions:21424
By the way, although none of the estimating websites presently consider traffic on adjoining streets (except perhaps First American's "Real estate appraisal using predictive modeling", which I've only seen in abstract "patent" form and not in actual present practical implementation form); traffic data is well documented for the majority of streets in the U.S. and is readily obtainable from selected sources, especially traffic engineers that are running the traffic assessment models for cities and counties.
It really would not be that hard to add traffic on adjoining streets to the estimates provided by various free automated estimating sites.
But really, it is not necessary. One can easily use the satellite and drive-by views to get an idea of traffic levels, and one can make their own adjustments, and one can visit the property if they want more accurate adjustments. And for index data, these issues cancel out for a neighborhood or region anyway
And really, this is all irrelevant to the topic; does First American have a valid case for a patent infringement lawsuit against websites that provide machine generated "ESTIMATES"? No; they don't, since the patent is about automated "APPRAISALS" using a specific method, not about making general ESTIMATES using an entirely different method for entirely different purposes.
It really would not be that hard to add traffic on adjoining streets to the estimates provided by various free automated estimating sites.
But really, it is not necessary. One can easily use the satellite and drive-by views to get an idea of traffic levels, and one can make their own adjustments, and one can visit the property if they want more accurate adjustments. And for index data, these issues cancel out for a neighborhood or region anyway
And really, this is all irrelevant to the topic; does First American have a valid case for a patent infringement lawsuit against websites that provide machine generated "ESTIMATES"? No; they don't, since the patent is about automated "APPRAISALS" using a specific method, not about making general ESTIMATES using an entirely different method for entirely different purposes.
- Robert Walker, "So Cal Agent"
- Contributions:1425
Wow!
- Pasadenan
- Contributions:21424
Besides, if you really want to provide free CMA's and free appraisals, I need 54,000 for some statistics I need to run. Can you have them ready for me by tomorrow?
- Pasadenan
- Contributions:21424
You are nothing but a NAR bot... you don't know the "whole picture" and you are misrepresenting your intimate knowledge of the thousands of housing units in your area that are not for sale.
The "comps" that Zillow "pulls up" have NOTHING to do with how the estimates were produced, and your MISINTERPRETATION of the purpose of the "ESTIMATE" makes it clear that you just want to bash everyone that isn't a member of NAR.
You have again disqualified yourself as being worthy of representing anyone, and have "PROVEN" that you are stealing resources from Zillow for your own self serving selfish marketing purposes all while stating their reason for existence is stupid because you absolutely don't need them and you absolutely don't trust anything they provide.
Well, if you don't trust them, why even bother posting???? Go to the NAR-Bot website where you can market your self-serving propaganda to other NAR-Bots and ignore the general public that has a desire for what Zillow provides and no use for NAR-propaganda that created the present global financial collapse, especially in Europe. If it wasn't for you NAR-bots, there never would have been a bubble, and there never would have been the misuse of Mortgage Backed Securities, nor Credit Default Swaps on the CDO's comprising those Mortgage Backed Securities.
I have 25 real-estate agents that I trust to provide for any transaction needs I may consider. There is no need to consider representation by a self-serving NAR bot that bashes a website that provides them free marketing space.
The "comps" that Zillow "pulls up" have NOTHING to do with how the estimates were produced, and your MISINTERPRETATION of the purpose of the "ESTIMATE" makes it clear that you just want to bash everyone that isn't a member of NAR.
You have again disqualified yourself as being worthy of representing anyone, and have "PROVEN" that you are stealing resources from Zillow for your own self serving selfish marketing purposes all while stating their reason for existence is stupid because you absolutely don't need them and you absolutely don't trust anything they provide.
Well, if you don't trust them, why even bother posting???? Go to the NAR-Bot website where you can market your self-serving propaganda to other NAR-Bots and ignore the general public that has a desire for what Zillow provides and no use for NAR-propaganda that created the present global financial collapse, especially in Europe. If it wasn't for you NAR-bots, there never would have been a bubble, and there never would have been the misuse of Mortgage Backed Securities, nor Credit Default Swaps on the CDO's comprising those Mortgage Backed Securities.
I have 25 real-estate agents that I trust to provide for any transaction needs I may consider. There is no need to consider representation by a self-serving NAR bot that bashes a website that provides them free marketing space.
- Robert Walker, "So Cal Agent"
- Contributions:1425
Just for the record, as stated above where you pulled the foreign language from on my profile:
"...Robert has a strong team of licensed professionals that speak many different languages. Robert finds this extremely important to include a team member who speaks a native language if necessary, so the client feels confident and is well informed while signing legally binding contracts..."
I love different cultures and honored to be able to be involved... I don't limit myself or my clients and they appreciate that.
I always look at the whole picture.
"...Robert has a strong team of licensed professionals that speak many different languages. Robert finds this extremely important to include a team member who speaks a native language if necessary, so the client feels confident and is well informed while signing legally binding contracts..."
I love different cultures and honored to be able to be involved... I don't limit myself or my clients and they appreciate that.
I always look at the whole picture.
- Robert Walker, "So Cal Agent"
- Contributions:1425
Really?
"...Your statement about your intimate knowledge about everything in your market area..."
Really? Is that you are reading into what I said?
"...including all the languages that you personally are supposedly fluent in has..."
Really? ... Really?... Did I say that "I" was fluent in any language? Others available upon request doesn't "Click" that perhaps there is something else at play here? Doesn't the concept of support from team members scream for recognition here?
You seem to be a fairly intelligent person, and appear to have intimate first hand knowledge how the Zillow platform has been pieced together. May be there is something that myself and about a million others are not grasping.
Zillow serves its purpose, but there are many that are under the wrong impression that Zillow is something it is not: an accurate source to refer to when one wants to know what their, or a purchase under consideration, property is worth.
By the way, punch in an address and then scroll to the right. "Similar sales" isn't a choice you make, it is what Zillow pulls up for you. That is a comp.
"...Your statement about your intimate knowledge about everything in your market area..."
Really? Is that you are reading into what I said?
"...including all the languages that you personally are supposedly fluent in has..."
Really? ... Really?... Did I say that "I" was fluent in any language? Others available upon request doesn't "Click" that perhaps there is something else at play here? Doesn't the concept of support from team members scream for recognition here?
You seem to be a fairly intelligent person, and appear to have intimate first hand knowledge how the Zillow platform has been pieced together. May be there is something that myself and about a million others are not grasping.
Zillow serves its purpose, but there are many that are under the wrong impression that Zillow is something it is not: an accurate source to refer to when one wants to know what their, or a purchase under consideration, property is worth.
By the way, punch in an address and then scroll to the right. "Similar sales" isn't a choice you make, it is what Zillow pulls up for you. That is a comp.
- Pasadenan
- Contributions:21424
And as stated multiple times; the curve fit is not for the purpose of establishing a price, nor establishing loan qualifications/criterion, nor determining equity, nor resale potential, nor tax assessment, nor HARP qualifications, nor for estate tax purposes.... the curve fit is for tracking market trends for an area over time; nothing else. The individual estimates are what is used to make up the Z-index; and it is the INDEX for the area that shows market trend changes over time; not the individual estimates. Sure, the individual estimate trend over time is graphed with several Z-indexes to see how it compares; but the adjustments for the 100's of other factors have to be applied by the one interpreting the data, and the fluctuations show the affect of the small samples of what sells in an area. But when you have a multitude of estimates to make up an index, these other factors cancel out.
CMA's have their purpose. Appraisals have their purpose. Machine estimates and market trend indexes have their purpose. Use the right methodology for the right purpose and stop getting the purposes confused.
That is the entire problem with the lawsuit; those suing have completely confused both the methods and the purpose.
They may look "similar" to a casual observer; but that is where the similarity ends.
And no, I don't believe you actually keep track of what happened to 40,000 ownership units over the past 50 years, no matter what database you use. I know the "lies" told by people that are members of NAR.
Your statement about your intimate knowledge about everything in your market area, including all the languages that you personally are supposedly fluent in has now completely disqualified you from ever representing me, and has proven that your work is not even 1/2 as accurate as a Z-estimate. At least I know the methodology for a Z-estimate and the tolerance range for the estimate, and how to interpret the tolerance range; but all I know about you is that you exaggerate and purposely insult people and organizations without looking into the details.
You have completely misinterpreted "Nearby Similar Sales"; and that was not written by the programmers nor the developers of the methodology, but by marketing people and public relations people.
Sure, Zillow lets you choose "nearby similar sales" for doing your own estimate; but that is not what is used for the automated Z-estimate; and does not replace the Z-estimate, nor is anything but the Z-estimates used in creating the index trends.
If you have any understanding of Case-Shiller at all, you would know the purpose and benefit of what Zillow is offering that cannot be matched by anything that NAR has to offer.
CMA's have their purpose. Appraisals have their purpose. Machine estimates and market trend indexes have their purpose. Use the right methodology for the right purpose and stop getting the purposes confused.
That is the entire problem with the lawsuit; those suing have completely confused both the methods and the purpose.
They may look "similar" to a casual observer; but that is where the similarity ends.
And no, I don't believe you actually keep track of what happened to 40,000 ownership units over the past 50 years, no matter what database you use. I know the "lies" told by people that are members of NAR.
Your statement about your intimate knowledge about everything in your market area, including all the languages that you personally are supposedly fluent in has now completely disqualified you from ever representing me, and has proven that your work is not even 1/2 as accurate as a Z-estimate. At least I know the methodology for a Z-estimate and the tolerance range for the estimate, and how to interpret the tolerance range; but all I know about you is that you exaggerate and purposely insult people and organizations without looking into the details.
You have completely misinterpreted "Nearby Similar Sales"; and that was not written by the programmers nor the developers of the methodology, but by marketing people and public relations people.
Sure, Zillow lets you choose "nearby similar sales" for doing your own estimate; but that is not what is used for the automated Z-estimate; and does not replace the Z-estimate, nor is anything but the Z-estimates used in creating the index trends.
If you have any understanding of Case-Shiller at all, you would know the purpose and benefit of what Zillow is offering that cannot be matched by anything that NAR has to offer.
- Robert Walker, "So Cal Agent"
- Contributions:1425
Well put Pasadenan... "Nearby Similar Sales" comes directly from Zillow's site. I believe a well trained agent comes in far closer than Zillow ever will, mostly because most agents that are really into their areas know their farms extremely well. They know the well kept homes and the trashed homes, they know the homes that are decked out and which ones that are simply basic. I can tell you which homes in my area that have issues and even down to what happened to most of them during production, including one that had an attic fire during production. The agents in the area know to ask me about particular homes that went into foreclosure because there isn't a homeowner on the property. This is something Zillow simple can not calculate, never, ever can a computer program be designed to take these factors into effect.
I see Zillow pricing homes backed up to an extremely busy street and pricing them exactly the same as one 1/2 to 3/4 of mile into the neighborhood. Reality, these homes sell $50 to $65K below everyone else. That isn't the agent selling them, that is the only time they will sell. Buyers avoid them like diease.
It comes down to having the right professional to do the job right. Get a licensed appraiser or you will pay the price.
I see Zillow pricing homes backed up to an extremely busy street and pricing them exactly the same as one 1/2 to 3/4 of mile into the neighborhood. Reality, these homes sell $50 to $65K below everyone else. That isn't the agent selling them, that is the only time they will sell. Buyers avoid them like diease.
It comes down to having the right professional to do the job right. Get a licensed appraiser or you will pay the price.
- Pasadenan
- Contributions:21424
It is NOT the "same thing"; Zillow specifically uses ALL sales in the area that are not completely out of line (such as sales to ones sister...), especially the "NOT SIMILAR" to do the "linear regression". The list of "comps" that Zillow provides have NOTHING to do with the estimate at all.
Really, if you have Excel, use the "Help" and look up the LINEST function, and look at example #3. It has NOTHING to do with any method used by any Realtor or Real Estate agent.
Zillow does NOT do a "Comparative Market Analysis", nor a "Competitive Market Analysis", nor, Nor a "Competitive Market Assessment", nor a "Comparative Market Assessment", nor any other propaganda term that NAR spews out.
Really, ALL Realtors® do MUCH WORSE by trying to tell people what the "price per square foot" is while completely ignoring the size of the land. Zillow uses 9 public record data items, not just "square foot"; but Zillow just curve fits to these public records items and makes no attempt at finding anything "similar" to do that. As already noted, you can not find something "similar" if you can't even go inside to see what is similar or not. Things like finish material and maintenance condition are just lumped into the last sold price and tax assessed value; and the maintenance condition cannot be very accurately determined from these two items if the last sold date was 20 years ago.
Really, if you have Excel, use the "Help" and look up the LINEST function, and look at example #3. It has NOTHING to do with any method used by any Realtor or Real Estate agent.
Zillow does NOT do a "Comparative Market Analysis", nor a "Competitive Market Analysis", nor, Nor a "Competitive Market Assessment", nor a "Comparative Market Assessment", nor any other propaganda term that NAR spews out.
Really, ALL Realtors® do MUCH WORSE by trying to tell people what the "price per square foot" is while completely ignoring the size of the land. Zillow uses 9 public record data items, not just "square foot"; but Zillow just curve fits to these public records items and makes no attempt at finding anything "similar" to do that. As already noted, you can not find something "similar" if you can't even go inside to see what is similar or not. Things like finish material and maintenance condition are just lumped into the last sold price and tax assessed value; and the maintenance condition cannot be very accurately determined from these two items if the last sold date was 20 years ago.
- Robert Walker, "So Cal Agent"
- Contributions:1425
You can name it "Nearby Similar Sales (Zillow)" or "Comparables (R/E Lingo)," it is still an attempt to say the exact samething.
CMA? Using the word loosly just like Zillow and First American uses their poor attempt to place a value on a home.
CMA? Using the word loosly just like Zillow and First American uses their poor attempt to place a value on a home.
- Pasadenan
- Contributions:21424
By the way, anyone that has looked into patent law at all knows that most money made from patents is not in licensing the patent, but it is in suing for infringement. So, if the lawyers think there is money to be made from suing, of course they will sue, regardless if they understand the math, the patent, or various methods & purposes at all.
- Pasadenan
- Contributions:21424
In a way it is surprising that First America didn't try to sue Case and Shiller as well. Zillow's estimating has a lot more to do with what CASE-SHILLER did than "predicting sales prices". Zillow is tracking marketing trends in all market regions with their "Z-index". And rather than using the same units that change hands to determine the index as CASE-SHILLER did in a handful of markets, Zillow is using the curve-fit estimating data for all units to find the "median" trend (thus consistent units as Case-Shiller did). Zillow also tracks the median of the upper 1/3 and lower 1/3 for tiered data trends (1/6 and 5/6; similar to "quartile" data offered by the U.S. Census, but the census data is not adjusted often enough to see the finer trend movements).
Since the "purpose" is "market trend data" and "trend curves", and not "sales price prediction", it is clear that Zillow's estimate method is not an infringement on a patent that is specifically for the purpose of "sales price predictions".
Of course, I still say Zillow needs to provide 1/6, 1/4, 1/3, 1/2, 2/3, 3/4, and 5/6 data trends, so that we can get an approximate histogram distribution of housing values in an area.
(Remember that values are not "prices", and estimates are only approximations based on limited data).
(And Robert needs to be reminded that Zillow doesn't use ANY "comps" for their "estimates"; their estimating method is NOT a "CMA"; it is multiple linear regression).
Since the "purpose" is "market trend data" and "trend curves", and not "sales price prediction", it is clear that Zillow's estimate method is not an infringement on a patent that is specifically for the purpose of "sales price predictions".
Of course, I still say Zillow needs to provide 1/6, 1/4, 1/3, 1/2, 2/3, 3/4, and 5/6 data trends, so that we can get an approximate histogram distribution of housing values in an area.
(Remember that values are not "prices", and estimates are only approximations based on limited data).
(And Robert needs to be reminded that Zillow doesn't use ANY "comps" for their "estimates"; their estimating method is NOT a "CMA"; it is multiple linear regression).
- Pasadenan
- Contributions:21424
There clearly are two other reasons First America is suing now, and didn't earlier:
1) If the so called "competition" was sued before developing a useful estimating method and "market share"; there would be no "revenue" to gain from such a suit as most of these machine estimates just wouldn't exist, or if they did, it would be because the courts ruled that they didn't infringe.
2) First American, even if using a neural network, still doesn't have results in the reliability range desired, and as all their so called competition has results that vary differently, they clearly would benefit from using additional methods of estimation, and choosing what works better in various cases. But the specifics of their "competition" are "proprietary" and not disclosed to the general public, and not documented in any patent that can be looked up. So, they are trying to use the "disclosure process" of the courts to force the "competition" to disclose their "trade secrets".
It won't work. If they state it is multiple linear regression, and then refuse to disclose the specific terms used in the linear regression, they still have protected their "trade secrets", and still have shown that what they are doing has nothing to do with the patent.
1) If the so called "competition" was sued before developing a useful estimating method and "market share"; there would be no "revenue" to gain from such a suit as most of these machine estimates just wouldn't exist, or if they did, it would be because the courts ruled that they didn't infringe.
2) First American, even if using a neural network, still doesn't have results in the reliability range desired, and as all their so called competition has results that vary differently, they clearly would benefit from using additional methods of estimation, and choosing what works better in various cases. But the specifics of their "competition" are "proprietary" and not disclosed to the general public, and not documented in any patent that can be looked up. So, they are trying to use the "disclosure process" of the courts to force the "competition" to disclose their "trade secrets".
It won't work. If they state it is multiple linear regression, and then refuse to disclose the specific terms used in the linear regression, they still have protected their "trade secrets", and still have shown that what they are doing has nothing to do with the patent.
- Robert Walker, "So Cal Agent"
- Contributions:1425
I haven't read the article, but just putting the two together, First American and Zillow, along with Zestimate absolutely sends chills up my spine thinking anyone would give any credibilty to their comps. As a Realtor, when I order a property profile, the first thing I do is find the first page of the comps they provide and the last page and avoid printing them. They are worth less than the paper and toner they are required to be printed on. If I could save from the power it takes to power the pixels it takes to display them on the screen, I would.
Seriously, both companies comps should be banned for misleading the public at large. Free is what free will get you, sellers and buyers should leave it in the professional licensed appraiser's ability to break it down. Everytime I have had an appraiser appraise a home prior to listing it, the home sold for top dollar and within very limited time.
When the appraiser from the bank comes through, separate from the appraisal I had done, they appraise it practically to the dollar.
Believe me, an appraiser is worth their weight in gold, and I am not an appraiser. I can do a CMA, but it is worthless in my opinion. I have taken the basic appraisal course and not a job I would want. There are large amounts of work that needs to be done that First American and Zillow don't even start to touch on and no computer program can ever do with out every home in America being tapped into a computer database for every little piece of information that occurs to and with the home.
Seriously, both companies comps should be banned for misleading the public at large. Free is what free will get you, sellers and buyers should leave it in the professional licensed appraiser's ability to break it down. Everytime I have had an appraiser appraise a home prior to listing it, the home sold for top dollar and within very limited time.
When the appraiser from the bank comes through, separate from the appraisal I had done, they appraise it practically to the dollar.
Believe me, an appraiser is worth their weight in gold, and I am not an appraiser. I can do a CMA, but it is worthless in my opinion. I have taken the basic appraisal course and not a job I would want. There are large amounts of work that needs to be done that First American and Zillow don't even start to touch on and no computer program can ever do with out every home in America being tapped into a computer database for every little piece of information that occurs to and with the home.
- Eric142
- Contributions:80
Not sure why they decided to file now. As pointed out it is very old patent and nearly expired. Zillow has been around long enough that I would have filed suit much sooner if I were the patent owner.
My only (layperson, who happens to work a lot with patents) speculation is that the plaintiffs are trying to get a settlement before In re Bilski is decided by the Supreme Court. If that decision goes the way I think it will the patent in question will be worth not even as much as the paper it is printed on. (This patent would clearly be unpatentable subject matter under section 101.)
My only (layperson, who happens to work a lot with patents) speculation is that the plaintiffs are trying to get a settlement before In re Bilski is decided by the Supreme Court. If that decision goes the way I think it will the patent in question will be worth not even as much as the paper it is printed on. (This patent would clearly be unpatentable subject matter under section 101.)
- Pasadenan
- Contributions:21424
The link to the Patent in question:
USPTO.Gov Patent # 5361201
Read through the claims; none of them apply. That is not what Zillow is doing for their estimates. It is not a "neural network" (and even if it was, that is not patentable as that is how all life forms process decisions), and it doesn't use a "training model" (though that is what has been used for text recognition ever since the Post office invested hundreds of millions of tax payer dollars for character recognition technology for automated postal sorting decades ago; which makes it public domain), and it doesn't offer an "appraised value" at all. It also doesn't use an "iterative" process.
And the patent was filed in 1992. Patents are only good for 18 years if all the renewal fees are paid on time. 18 years is just about over. (Issued 11/1/94).
This is just a last ditch effort to try to get some return on the patent fees.
Field of invention:
"In particular, the invention relates to an automated real estate appraisal system and method that uses predictive modeling to perform pattern recognition and classification in order to provide accurate sales price predictions." -
Accurate sales price predictions? You have to be kidding!? Zillow never claimed such a thing, and no one expects it. "Pattern recognition"? Doesn't apply; Zillow only uses sqft, lot size, # bedrooms, # bathrooms, # stories, year built, tax assessed value adjusted for local tax rules, last sold price/date, & covered parking if available in the county (public) records, and curve fit data to recently sold data within a given distance (more distance for more rural, shorter distance for more dense/urban). Sure their "my estimate" uses some additional numbers; but only adjustments to the curve fit data, as one would look up any median value item in a cost estimating book, published for decades. There is no "pattern recognition".
Then of course there are the figures... 21 of them... you need another link for those: (link is on the bottom of the text of the patent):
images but you need a USPTO plug-in to view the images (mostly to prevent people copying entire patents without paying copying fees). The plug in is free; so feel free to look if it is still interesting to you.
Liam Lavery should have a lot of fun with this one. Something to make him feel that his job really has some purpose; and he'll get to do some interesting reading as one of those "job bonuses".
USPTO.Gov Patent # 5361201
Read through the claims; none of them apply. That is not what Zillow is doing for their estimates. It is not a "neural network" (and even if it was, that is not patentable as that is how all life forms process decisions), and it doesn't use a "training model" (though that is what has been used for text recognition ever since the Post office invested hundreds of millions of tax payer dollars for character recognition technology for automated postal sorting decades ago; which makes it public domain), and it doesn't offer an "appraised value" at all. It also doesn't use an "iterative" process.
And the patent was filed in 1992. Patents are only good for 18 years if all the renewal fees are paid on time. 18 years is just about over. (Issued 11/1/94).
This is just a last ditch effort to try to get some return on the patent fees.
Field of invention:
"In particular, the invention relates to an automated real estate appraisal system and method that uses predictive modeling to perform pattern recognition and classification in order to provide accurate sales price predictions." -
Accurate sales price predictions? You have to be kidding!? Zillow never claimed such a thing, and no one expects it. "Pattern recognition"? Doesn't apply; Zillow only uses sqft, lot size, # bedrooms, # bathrooms, # stories, year built, tax assessed value adjusted for local tax rules, last sold price/date, & covered parking if available in the county (public) records, and curve fit data to recently sold data within a given distance (more distance for more rural, shorter distance for more dense/urban). Sure their "my estimate" uses some additional numbers; but only adjustments to the curve fit data, as one would look up any median value item in a cost estimating book, published for decades. There is no "pattern recognition".
Then of course there are the figures... 21 of them... you need another link for those: (link is on the bottom of the text of the patent):
images but you need a USPTO plug-in to view the images (mostly to prevent people copying entire patents without paying copying fees). The plug in is free; so feel free to look if it is still interesting to you.
Liam Lavery should have a lot of fun with this one. Something to make him feel that his job really has some purpose; and he'll get to do some interesting reading as one of those "job bonuses".
- Pasadenan
- Contributions:21424
Though I haven't looked up the specific patent yet (I will...), a Least Squares Curve fit is not patentable as it is general knowledge well over centuries old, and "state of the art"; nothing "unique". And as with all software, the courts have already ruled that obtaining similar results without copying the actual code or screen appearances or programing outlines is not copyright infringement. Although Zillow is not legally allowed to comment while the case is pending; I'm certainly not bound by such restrictions as an outside person. There is no case.
Sure, if someone looked up the patent, copied the method directly, and refused to pay royalties there would be an issue. But Zillow is not even selling anything as claimed. They are only providing curve-fit trend data, and using that as an enticement for page views, to generate advertisement revenue. They are not even pretending it is an automatic appraisal, but have gone out of their way to make sure people realize it is not an appraisal.
I mean really, that is like someone suing because they have a patent on putting water in a glass to drink! (What are the actual claims in the patent? What was the actual body of the patent? Even if a claim was made and accepted by the reviewer, it may still be invalid based on actual practice and intent).
Sure, if someone looked up the patent, copied the method directly, and refused to pay royalties there would be an issue. But Zillow is not even selling anything as claimed. They are only providing curve-fit trend data, and using that as an enticement for page views, to generate advertisement revenue. They are not even pretending it is an automatic appraisal, but have gone out of their way to make sure people realize it is not an appraisal.
I mean really, that is like someone suing because they have a patent on putting water in a glass to drink! (What are the actual claims in the patent? What was the actual body of the patent? Even if a claim was made and accepted by the reviewer, it may still be invalid based on actual practice and intent).
- sunnyview
- Contributions:25120
I think it took them too long to sue. The cat is out of bag and First American failed to protect their "invention" adequately so I believe that they will ultimately lose.
- real estate mike
- Contributions:2001
my response is that a reasonable person would read what a zestimate is(and is not) and in plain english it is not market value. never has been never will be.
- Yousef Abughazaleh, "Mr.shortsales"
- Contributions:242
They are suing over the valuation "system" that zillow and others use.
- Tracy & Tego Venturi, "The Venturi Team"
- Contributions:1772
I'm with Vince on this one. People will pay what they will pay, not what Zillow tells them to. In our area Zillow is higher than market in many cases.
- Vince Curtis, "SoCal Appraiser"
- Contributions:4697
Patrick - WOW - I didnt know ZIllow had that much power to set values and prices in the market! The free market sets the price of any product, not a website. I would hate you have you guys as my Realtor.
PS - CoreLogic has way too much power as it is. Hoping they 'win' will give them all the power in this 'free valuation' model marketplace, which will only grow over time.
Try their website and see if it is any better, why dont you ?
http://express.realquest.com/
IMHO their data is very dated, much more so than Zillow, feature unfriendly, and not so 'smart'. But Im sure Patrick disagrees....
PS - CoreLogic has way too much power as it is. Hoping they 'win' will give them all the power in this 'free valuation' model marketplace, which will only grow over time.
Try their website and see if it is any better, why dont you ?
http://express.realquest.com/
IMHO their data is very dated, much more so than Zillow, feature unfriendly, and not so 'smart'. But Im sure Patrick disagrees....
- Short Sale & Foreclosure Experts, "Notice of Default"
- Contributions:68
Im sorry zillow but i hope they win. Your values are off and are making buyers less educated when they are thinking they are more educated, reducing home values even more and making the buyer/agent relationship harder.
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"First American sues Zillow, and others over Zestimates"
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