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Housing Crash to Resume on 7 Million Foreclosures

Profile picture for dacolan
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Since October 2009

Sept. 23 (Bloomberg) -- The crash in U.S. home prices will probably resume because about 7 million properties that are likely to be seized by lenders have yet to hit the market, Amherst Securities Group LP analysts said.

The "huge shadow inventory," reflecting mortgages already being foreclosed upon or now delinquent and likely to be, compares with 1.27 million in 2005, the analysts led by Laurie Goodman wrote today in a report. Assuming no other homes are on the market, it would take 1.35 years to sell the properties based on the current pace of existing-home sales, they said.
...
"The favorable seasonals will disappear over the coming months, and the reality of a 7 million-unit housing overhang is likely to set in," they said.

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September 25 - US

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Profile picture for dacolan
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more on The "Shadow" Foreclosure Inventory:

As of July, mortgage companies hadn't begun the foreclosure process on 1.2 million loans that were at least 90 days past due, according to estimates prepared for The Wall Street Journal by LPS Applied Analytics, which collects and analyzes mortgage data. An additional 1.5 million seriously delinquent loans were somewhere in the foreclosure process, though the lender hadn't yet acquired the property. The figures don't include home-equity loans and other second mortgages

Moreover, there were 217,000 loans in July where the borrower hadn't made a payment in at least a year but the lender hadn't begun the foreclosure process. In other words, 17% of home mortgages that are at least 12 months overdue aren't in foreclosure, up from 8% a year earlier.
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September 25
Profile picture for DebtsNMesses
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So let me get this right... the 'shadow inventory' is at about 7 million from the SUBPRIME Tsunami wave, and we have yet to hit the OPTION/ALT-A Tsunami wave. This is going to be a total annihilation.

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September 25
Profile picture for DebtsNMesses
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By the way... there is an easy solution for this problem. Make a law that the banks must list, on the MLS, the foreclosed home 30 days after forclosing, and they must sell the home 60 days after foreclosure on the grounds that banks are not permitted to be in the real estate business and hold on to the homes in order to influence the housing market.

Wonder how many homes would be foreclosed then? lol
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September 25
Profile picture for Caveat Emptor
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not many... banks would just let people live in the homes rent free for about 6 years...  people would start to forget "what is foreclosure" or get angry if a bank "unfairly" foreclosed on them after just 2 years on non-payment

talk about a change to the rent vs buy equation! 0.o
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September 25
Profile picture for jimmy57
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"Make a law that the banks must list, on the MLS, the foreclosed home 30 days after forclosing..."

I share your frustration with the "shadow inventory", but I don't see how compelling banks to put properties on the market is in the spirit of free enterprise.

I not aware that banks aren't allowed to hold inventory ("be in the real estate business"). Is that even true?
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September 26
Profile picture for azrob
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View my 1 listings

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in the past, bank inspectors frowned on banks holding properties long term.
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September 26
Profile picture for White Picture
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Since March 2009

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September 27
Profile picture for jimmy57
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Under current circumstances, it doesn't seem like any authority is going to be pushing banks to unload RE and take losses onto their books.  There seems to be tacit agreement to let banks de-leverage slowly.

In other words, those that would like to get the pain over with as quickly as possible seem to be a minority,  without much influence in congress, the administration, or the MSM.
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September 27
Profile picture for frisky1
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Strategic default sounds better and better every day.

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September 27
Profile picture for Lady Chattel
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Can't wait to see Micheal Moore's new movie.........


One of the things he said on Larry King didn't make much sense (to me) when they talked about foreclosures, MM said that banks are okay with owning the homes cause land is always a good thing to own.....uh, even the land values have gone down......
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September 27
Profile picture for space_acer
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"One of the things he said on Larry King didn't make much sense (to me) when they talked about foreclosures, MM said that banks are okay with owning the homes cause land is always a good thing to own.....uh, even the land values have gone down......"

Land is really a worthless asset.  Land is only an asset if it actual produces goods and services.  Field of corn has more value because it returns income periodically.  Banks are carrying homes at negative cash flow. A concept alien to MM. 

MM film I like to see...
"Micheal Moore goes to Business School"
Micheal learns about business, economics and finance. 

Ending comment from MM in the film, " Oh thats what is about! I had no clue! "

 
 

  
 
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September 27
Profile picture for Pasadenan
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In this area, it was primarily the land that bubbled in value.  The surprising thing is that in the bubble deflation, the condos have been hit so hard since they have no land.

Land is still quite bubbled.


And this arguement about "highest and best use" is just propaganda for special interests to exploit others.  If the zoning was established correctly, what they say is "highest and best use" wouldn't have been allowed at all.  Besides, what they were saying was "highest and best use" 5 years ago was bubble inflated housing that is not mostly empty or having difficulty selling or renting.


Land use should not be about "highest and best use", but rather "livability and sustainability".  After all, that is why we have national forests.

Sure, there is not enough land for each of 6 billion people to have their own 640 acres (square mile), but most of them really don't want that much and would have no use for it.  Most of them prefer city densities to rural densities.  And that argument realtors give about "not making any more land" is just marketing manipulation and propaganda.  The same excuse for not allowing families to have children and insisting on sterialization and abortions?  There is sufficient resources to support at least 10 times the population if we didn't send all the resources to the landfill and exploit species to the point of extinction.
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September 28
Profile picture for Pasadenan
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not mostly empty --->  *now* mostly empty
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September 28
Profile picture for klarek the realist
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Debts, I theorize that the reset chart isn't very indicative of what's to come, at least from the second wave.  The reason is that these are known failures, and the people will either be saved by the govt (yeah right) or will walk away much sooner.  By now people are becoming more realistic.  They know prices will not come back and there's no chance they can get out of their awful loans.  I'm guessing the a large portion of people in that second wave have already stopped paying.
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September 28
Profile picture for DebtsNMesses
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Klarek... although I agree that the people KNOW they are in trouble, many of them are not willing to face it until it hits AND neither are the banks. I know a man that is trying to do a loan mod since his rate is adjustable and he is being proactive... the banks won't let him since it won't hit for 2 more years.

The reset chart is more relevant when considering people's, and banks, behaviors.

My theory to not let banks be owners of homes for extended periods WILL work since it will stop so many forclosures and save more homes from ruins.. if only the banking lobbyists would get their money out of bribing our Congress!!
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September 28
Profile picture for Lady Chattel
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Tehnically the banks are the owners ;-> 

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September 28
Profile picture for DebtsNMesses
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Before 1999 what they are doing would be considered illegal. We need to repeal the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act of 1999 and re-regulate the banks. It was a stupid bipartisan lobby-funded act in the first place. lol
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September 28
Profile picture for kanzus
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It looks like a perfect storm may be setting up with the federal tax credit $8K expiring in November, the rise in overall unemployment, and the rise in foreclosures. We have an overhang of 7 million foreclosures yet to hit the market. We should be seeing a BIG price drop in home prices in the coming months. The short article below says that right now we are at 3rd quarter 2003 home prices. I sure would like to buy my first home at 1999 prices before the boom got started. I wonder if it is possible to reach 1999 prices by 2011? Is it realistic? Anybody have any ideas???


FROM The New York Times
September 30, 2009

U.S. Home Prices Continue to Improve, Index Shows

A closely watched index of home prices shows year-over-year improvement for a sixth month and prices in all 20 cities rose from June to July.

The Standard & Poor's/Case-Shiller home price index of 20 major cities released Tuesday rose 1.2 percent from June. Home prices are still 13.3 percent below July a year ago, though that was slightly better than expected. Analysts had forecast a 14.2 percent decline.

The index is down about 33 percent from the peak in mid-2006. Home prices are now at levels not seen since the third quarter of 2003.

"The rate of annual decline in home price values continues to decelerate and we now seem to be witnessing some sustained monthly increases across many of the markets," the chairman of the index committee at Standard & Poor's, David M. Blitzer, said.

But Mr. Blitzer also offered a note of caution, saying that the industry needed to assess whether the housing market would weather the expiration of the first-time buyer's tax credit in November, the anticipated rise in unemployment and a possible increase in foreclosures.

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September 29
Profile picture for Pasadenan
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The government cannot stand to see the housing prices "correct" quickly, as it affects tax revenue (especially property tax for local governments).  Thus, of course there will be a 2010 buyers tax incentive; the only question is what it will be, who will qualify, and when will it be passed.  They are foolish to pass it before December as they need to maximise the "rush to buy" that we are presently paying for.  But if prices drop too quickly in December, you can be sure they will not wait until January to pass the legislation for the 2010 buying incentive.  There goal is not to increase prices, but to keep them from falling and to keep sales at a sufficient rate to liquidate the foreclosures.

In the meantime, they will slowly devalue the dollar, hoping that this will eventually mean that prices will not need to drop in order to be at the corrected market value.

And we will all get ripped off as we won't get the pay raises implied by the decline of the dollar value.  It is the american way.  Just as government takes more and more of the worker's money with no increase in services.  You cannot "undo" those taxes and government red-tape without replacing the government structure and essentially starting over.
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September 29
Profile picture for klarek the realist
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"I wonder if it is possible to reach 1999 prices by 2011? Is it realistic? Anybody have any ideas???"

That's where my marker is.  That is about the start of the bubble, median household GDP is falling to around the level back then, and we have a glut of new houses that far outpaced the increase in population that is eligible to buy (under sane lending standards). 
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September 29
Profile picture for Pasadenan
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I originally anticipated late 2011; but with the excessive government interventions, it could be postponed a lot longer than that.  And with 3 years of foreclosure inventory coming that is 50% more than presently on the market, government intervention will continue at least until 2013.

And we still need to see how change in inheritance tax law will factor into that.


Then with another presidential election, and a couple elections for senators and congress people?  Who knows?  All we know is they only look at short term impacts and what it may mean for the election outcomes.

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September 29
Profile picture for DebtsNMesses
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I'm unsure it will hit. If inflation hits hard, and a loaf of bread is 300K, house prices wouldn't be much lower. lol

On the other hand, if inflation doesn't hit hard, then we should see 1996 prices due to overcorrection. Depending on the deflation it could go even much lower for cash.

I have yet to have time to 'map' my projections to even guess at where we are and where we'll hit.

Man, I've been BUSY. lol
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September 29
Profile picture for Pasadenan
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Government officials will not allow hyper-inflation; they will try to keep anyone from even recognising the inflation.

No one thinks that a loaf of bread will cost the same as a house.  Right now, some housing prices are about twice what they should be.  (Not quite as bad in many areas).  So, if you had 10% annual inflation, how long would you have to keep prices subsidized in order to keep the price the same while the value drops to where the bubble is deflated?  1.1^n = 2.  ln(1.1)n=ln(2).  n=ln(2)/ln(1.1)=7 years.

If the value was normalized by mid 2013, what would the annual interest rate need to be?  2013-2009 = 4 years.  x^4=2   x=2^(.25) x=1.189; thus would need 19% annual inflation.

Obviously the government will not use 19% annual inflation.  But many sectors have experienced more than 12% annual inflation (health insurance for example).  I think their target inflation is 10%, but they may accept 7 or 8%, but the government numbers will show it as less than 2%, partially due to the housing market decline.  Wasn't it last December that gasoline was less than $1.80 per gallon in Southern California?  Now it is back up to $3 per gallon.

The art of hidding inflation is fluctuating the numbers widely and rapidly so that no one really knows where they are, where they were, or where they are going.  You bump it up high, then let it relax, and people are relieved it is not as high as it was and forget that it still was excessive inflation.

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September 29
Profile picture for DebtsNMesses
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2 out of 2 Congressmen have told me that hyperinflation will DEFINITELY happen. Plus, hyperinflation is an 'inflation tax' that the govt can do w/o passing higher taxes that the people will avoid or protest. It will be a tax on every man, women, and child that cannot be avoided, since it will include food. They say it will hit in March or April, but I haven't done my own analysis, so I'm still on the fence.
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September 30
Profile picture for Pasadenan
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Controlled inflation will definitely happen; it already is; and has been for a long time.

Hyperinflation in the U.S. is highly unlikely as it implies the U.S. Credit is competely shot, with no one willing to lend.  But the U.S. Government assets far exceed the total debt, and there are no other governments that are as financially stable and have as good a record for paying the interest on their debt.

And we need to remember that many government expenses (including food stamps and WIC as just very small examples) that are linked to inflation, thus the government always will report the inflation rates as low as possible in order to minimise expenditures.

It is always the same; increase taxes, decrease services, and only look at the short term, never long term effects.

Yes, with a progressive tax, the more inflation, the larger share the government gets to spend, but hyperinflation will be avoided at all costs, even if that means renting out the U.S. highways so that advertisers can blast us with garbage and the landlords can collect substantial tolls.
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September 30
Profile picture for Caveat Emptor
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"hyperinflation wont happen... the US is... gasp... different" 3 scariest words on wallstreet, yea?

no, in all seriousness i agree with you, not a chance we experience deflation in housing, loss of savings, loss of consumer base and and a DECREASE in the demand for money at the same time. you cannot have it both ways.

as the cost of living falls inflation will occur, of course, but it certainly wont destroy the wealth of the nation, why would the government want that?

to pay off the debt? since when have we given a rats azz about that? (since we elected a democrat). our debt level is leaps and bounds ahead of japan(close to 200% gdp), all of europe... china's economy is TINY compared with ours and dependent upon ours as much as we are dependent upon theirs. for 8 years we funded the war in iraq, The committee estimated $1.3 trillion in war costs by the end of 2008 for Iraq, and the remainder(.6T) for Afghanistan.

did we have ~hyperinflation~? no. now everyone is throwing scary words around. its misdirection.

my point of course is not that spending is okay because spain and france owe more than 100% GDP, my point is that people are sensationalist and that although our debt is large, it is not too large. its not going to cause us problems for a while. not unless something changes. 1 stimulus bill and 1 healthcare bill aren't going to do that.
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September 30
Profile picture for Caveat Emptor
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of course on the flip side of the coin, i am a proponent of budget oversight, conservancy, budget surplus', FUNDING the programs you pass and allowing NO congressional discression over approving unfunded programs.

its one thing to need a stimulus, its quite the other to create long term programs without funding them through taxes.

my point has nothing to do with that.

right here, right now. tomorrow. next week. 2020. the US will still have a deficit and the US will still have a manageable inflation rate.(i suggest that the government will probably be quoting it in the 4's by then.
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September 30
Profile picture for Pasadenan
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Any chance those 2 congressmen are Republicans that are just badmouthing the Democrat policies?

The Republicans initiated the war deficit spending and the "bail outs" and the "stimulus packages".  It is not a Democrat policy; they are both equally at fault.

And I'm totally against both parties, as well as the Socialist, Green, Peace & Freedom, Libertiarian, and Independent parties.  All those politicians have the same corrupt interest groups and short sightedness.

Would that mean I would vote for the Nazi party or the Talaban party?  Absolutely not!  Just because some parties are bad does not mean their aren't parties that are worse.

Would I establish my own party?  Highly unlikely as the corrupt system would never allow the election of individuals that are not sold out to the special interests.
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September 30
Profile picture for Pasadenan
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Since January 2009

If one believes high inflation is going to hit several different market sectors, what commodity or product would one put their money in as a "hedge" against such inflation?

Not Real Estate as that is already bubbled and will either remain propped up or will decline.

Not Gasoline/Oil, as it went to $5 per gallon based on speculation and is back to $3 per gallon, and the government is trying to encourage investement in alternate energy.

Not Frozen Orange Juice as it costs too much to keep it frozen.

Not Rice as it went from $0.30 per pound to $1 per pound due to speculation and back to $0.50 per pound.

Not clothes as the styles change too quickly and they are bulky take much storage and are susceptible to damage from bugs and other forces.

Not solar energy as the technology is still being developed to drive down costs.

Not automobiles as it costs too much to store, maintain, insure, and register.

Not granite as it is just a fad and much of it is radioactive and the weight makes storage and moving costs impractical.

Not gold as it is already highly priced due to speculation, and could not be liquidated quickly at a reasonable value if there was financial hardship, and it can't be eaten or worn..

Not Silver as it also is a highly speculated commodity with limited uses.

Not potatos as they won't keep.

Not eggs as they won't keep.

Not bread as it won't keep.

Not milk as it won't keep.

Not sugar as it is already highly priced and it is very difficult to keep bugs out, and there is a desire of many to reduce sugar in their diets.

Not chocolate as it will melt and there is too much temptation to eat it all.

Not books as few are reading them and what most people want to read can be borrowed from a local library.

Not toys as the market is highly competitive and there is a tendency for people to want the newest toys.

Not faucet washers as they deteriorate with time even when not used.

Not computers as they become obsolete in less than 1 year.

Not software as the software companies try to make all versions obsolete in less than 2 years.

Not wire as the insulation on the wire deteriorates.

Not paper as it costs too much to store it.

Not Hammers as we keep importing hammers sold at $1, and one can only use so many hammers at one time.

Any suggestions?
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September 30
Profile picture for DebtsNMesses
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My father asked me years ago that very question. He asked me to find what will work in both hyperinflation and severe deflation. The only thing I could come up with is nothing. It's a destruction of the currency and there is no safe place for the currency. Everything is reduced to a BARTER SYSTEM. BUT, certain things were ok. Land. Land feeds you and has value in the recovery. Communication. The radio was actually invented and expanded during the great depression. Although they didn't make money per se, it's a note worth taking.

How I look at it is a country is slowing down, to rest, to sleep. Each industry slows to a crawl, or disappears all together. A good indicator is the transportation industry. Watch it by how much stuff it moves, not the dollar amount, since the dollar is in flux.

Then the recovery. Every day people when they wake up they first listen (communication industry), then they open their eyes and stretch (transportation industry). The same goes with a nation. I believe that's why communication, such as the radio, was able to start up in such hard times. People checked every day for news of recovery.

Now in all my research, I didn't find a single millionaire that made his money DURING the bad times. It was always before or after, with many millionaires losing everything. The belief that there is opportunity in every bad scenerio is false. It's those who survive and then make money that came out on top.
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