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Answers (23)
Best Answer
- Tiffany Bond, "TiffanyBond"
- Contributions:3010
@ Pasa
I think a lot of agents aren't as familiar with rural properties, even in Bellingham where many are septic. That being said, I'll amend my comment to "I'd call the police if I saw a buyer showing up with a backhoe without that contingency in place or some notification/mutual agreement that heavy equipment be brought on site."
Although there certainly are inspections that call for this sort of equipment, they usually aren't the first step unless there is a flag for concern. A good portion of testing for soil, ground water, etc does not require a full on backhoe. First steps are usually more like a shovel or a small bore tool.
- Pasadenan
- Contributions:21466
Usually the GFI's are not required for the sale, but they usually are required for the new certificate of occupancy. But that is up to each individual building/safety department. The GFI outlets are such low cost, I can't imagine anyone not bothering to do that before moving in. You only need 5 milli amperes through your heart to stop it and kill you. And wet hands and/or wet feet make that much more likely.
- Tiffany Bond, "TiffanyBond"
- Contributions:3010
@ Pasa
Properties do exist that an inspection involving a bobcat or back hoe would be prudent....I would guess they are not in the majority for folks on this forum.
I've also closed on a house that did not have GFIs in the last 18 months - so it's not always a requirement/enforced.
Properties do exist that an inspection involving a bobcat or back hoe would be prudent....I would guess they are not in the majority for folks on this forum.
I've also closed on a house that did not have GFIs in the last 18 months - so it's not always a requirement/enforced.
- Pasadenan
- Contributions:21466
Nina -
Did you mean "absolutely legal"
or "absolutely wrong"
or "absolutely negotiable"
or "absolutely the septic system inspector needs access to the tank"?
Did you mean "absolutely legal"
or "absolutely wrong"
or "absolutely negotiable"
or "absolutely the septic system inspector needs access to the tank"?
- Nina Harris, "NinaHarris"
- Contributions:257
Absolutely! The property belongs to the seller until he signs over the deed at closing and all moneys are exchanged.
- Pasadenan
- Contributions:21466
Even properties sold "as is" usually have inspection contingencies. Actually, it is even more likely to have an inspection contingency since there are obviously issues that will need some attention, and one needs to assess the cost of the work so that one knows if it makes financial sense to them or not.
I am very familiar with one property that has 4 septic tanks and at least one grease trap buried on it. Presently only one of the access shows at the surface, and that certainly wasn't the case 10 years ago. And I witnessed hand digging to expose the grease trap. I even have a map that has the locations shown for the septic tanks and grease trap; but having seen some of these, I can tell you they are not located as shown on the map. The access for each of these tended also to be about 2 ft to 3ft below grade. Sure, one may not need a backhoe to expose the access, but even a bobcat would be nice. And if one is paying an inspection company, it is whatever the equipment that company brings that would be used.
For the leach field, there are always leach lines. The tank is not to leach directly. And one does need access to the septic tank for pumping the tank out, which needs to be done periodically.
---------------
Public water system, or public sewer system, or public storm drain system? There is a major difference.
By the way, most properties do not need to be brought up to code when sold IF they met the code when installed. Only some aspects need to comply with present code, such as smoke detectors, carbon monoxide detectors, and ground fault protection on outdoor outlets and outlets within 6 feet of a sink.
I am very familiar with one property that has 4 septic tanks and at least one grease trap buried on it. Presently only one of the access shows at the surface, and that certainly wasn't the case 10 years ago. And I witnessed hand digging to expose the grease trap. I even have a map that has the locations shown for the septic tanks and grease trap; but having seen some of these, I can tell you they are not located as shown on the map. The access for each of these tended also to be about 2 ft to 3ft below grade. Sure, one may not need a backhoe to expose the access, but even a bobcat would be nice. And if one is paying an inspection company, it is whatever the equipment that company brings that would be used.
For the leach field, there are always leach lines. The tank is not to leach directly. And one does need access to the septic tank for pumping the tank out, which needs to be done periodically.
---------------
Public water system, or public sewer system, or public storm drain system? There is a major difference.
By the way, most properties do not need to be brought up to code when sold IF they met the code when installed. Only some aspects need to comply with present code, such as smoke detectors, carbon monoxide detectors, and ground fault protection on outdoor outlets and outlets within 6 feet of a sink.
- Tiffany Bond, "TiffanyBond"
- Contributions:3010
It isn't very prudent of a seller to allow heavy equipment on site without supervision, nor is it prudent to allow someone else to use their backhoe (should that be the case) without supervision. There are quite a few liability issues for which I certainly wouldn't want to be in the position of responsibility.
From a buyer standpoint, it doesn't hurt to ask to have things repaired or deductions made for repairs. It doesn't mean you can expect the consessions to be agreed to by the seller, but you can always ask - even if the house is listed as-is. (Sometimes sellers will agree if the issue is one that will prevent a sale to any buyer who needs financing, even if explicitly listed "as-is.") I have had buyers make their own repairs to close a sale before (with seller permission, buyer funds, and buyer fully aware that the expense on the repairs would be a loss to them should the property not close). However, this is definitely not a good choice in most circumstances.
It sounds like a case of overbearing enthusiasm on the buyer side and willful ignorance on the seller side. Neither is great in a real estate transaction.
From a buyer standpoint, it doesn't hurt to ask to have things repaired or deductions made for repairs. It doesn't mean you can expect the consessions to be agreed to by the seller, but you can always ask - even if the house is listed as-is. (Sometimes sellers will agree if the issue is one that will prevent a sale to any buyer who needs financing, even if explicitly listed "as-is.") I have had buyers make their own repairs to close a sale before (with seller permission, buyer funds, and buyer fully aware that the expense on the repairs would be a loss to them should the property not close). However, this is definitely not a good choice in most circumstances.
It sounds like a case of overbearing enthusiasm on the buyer side and willful ignorance on the seller side. Neither is great in a real estate transaction.
- Golden Girl 542
- Contributions:17
Thanks Tiffany,
The septic showed up in a standard test done by a septic company to leak. I am pretty sure (we have septic as well) that its supposed to be able to leak some, isn't that what a drain field is?
Another point here is that the seller is firm about selling the property as is. The home is not up to code and any buyer would be building and most likely hooking up to the now available public water system.
Its as if the buyer wants to make the home rentable as it stands in the interim before they are ready to build. This isn't the sellers problem. The extra dirt work was conducted after their request for a new septic was denied. (..and it could be the sellers own backhoe) I just can't believe they didn't ask first to dig around.
I have told the buyers to beware of their liability of these folks on their property without permission. I care deeply about them and don't want to see them get screwed. They aren't in any rush to sell and the buyers realtor sent them the most unprofessional letter that completely disregards the big huge fact that the property is listed "as is".
- Pasadenan
- Contributions:21466
I can't believe so many REALTORs® state that they would absolutely REFUSE to let a buyer have a company do a thorough inspection of a septic tank, and would refuse to allow a percolation test. Nor can I believe they would refuse to allow a soil compaction test and/or a soil moisture content test or a ground water level test.
These tests are very common, and there are ways to do them as part of the inspection contingency without damaging the property and without violating the contract and without trespassing.
Any Realtor® that posted that a buyer cannot legally have those inspections or tests has disqualified themselves from representing me or any other potential buyer I know.
A "test" that requires earth work is not "starting work" prior to owning... it is simply an inspection or a test. And they are required to restore the property to the original/satisfactory condition after the test as already mentioned by NWhome.
Similarly walls or ceilings in a home may need to be opened up for proper inspection if an inspection found conditions warranting further investigation.
These tests are very common, and there are ways to do them as part of the inspection contingency without damaging the property and without violating the contract and without trespassing.
Any Realtor® that posted that a buyer cannot legally have those inspections or tests has disqualified themselves from representing me or any other potential buyer I know.
A "test" that requires earth work is not "starting work" prior to owning... it is simply an inspection or a test. And they are required to restore the property to the original/satisfactory condition after the test as already mentioned by NWhome.
Similarly walls or ceilings in a home may need to be opened up for proper inspection if an inspection found conditions warranting further investigation.
- Michele & Andrea Team, "Michele Gort"
- Contributions:5
A buyer cannot start work until he owns the property. The owner will be liable if the buyer falls and gets hurt on the property. There is no meeting of the minds. So wrong!!
- Sharon Lewis, "Sharon Lewis"
- Contributions:3917
No, if there is no agreement in place they are trespassing if you did not give them permission to be there.Plus if something happens to the backhoe, guess who can get sued...Tell them to take their personal items off the property until the legals are done.
- Steven Porzio, "Steven Porzio"
- Contributions:16
I would not recommend that, a buyer should not do anything to the property until they take legal possession of the home.
- Karla Wagner, "karlaw"
- Contributions:151
I would say no, however, without knowing all of the details of the agreements between buyer and seller, it is difficult to say. If you have concerns, and you are not a party to the transaction, then I would recommend you contact a real estate attorney with your concerns.
- Susan Blanford, "Susan Blanford"
- Contributions:55
Dear GoldenGirl 542, how are you so certain that there is no agreed upon contract? Unless you are a party to the transaction in some way or unless someone has breached confidentiality in the transaction, there is no way to be certain. If, in fact, no agreement has been reached, and the property has not been sold to the person doing the excavating, it would be extremely risky to begin any kind of work on a property you do not own. A real estate attorney could best advise you on the legal ramifications of these actions.m If you are the owner, I believe I would call an attorney specializing in real estate.
- Pasadenan
- Contributions:21466
"...the home is so old, it is a tear down" -
Age of a home is not what determines whether one tears down the house. Actually, for the same size home in the same area, the opposite is true; the older the home is, the more significance it has, and thus the more value it has. A 3000 year old home is worth more than a 1000 year old home. And a 1000 year old home is worth more than a 200 year old home. And a 200 year old home is worth more than a 100 year old home. And a 100 year old home is worth more than a 10 year old home.
Of course, part of that historic significance is who designed the home, and who lived in the home, and if any important historical events occurred in or at that home.
And in many cases, one can't just tear something down without first obtaining a demolition permit. And for some areas, that permit process could take up to 2 years, especially if the home has historic significance. And for some building departments, they will not issue a demolition permit until they have reviewed and approved the proposed new structures that will replace what is being demolished.
Age of a home is not what determines whether one tears down the house. Actually, for the same size home in the same area, the opposite is true; the older the home is, the more significance it has, and thus the more value it has. A 3000 year old home is worth more than a 1000 year old home. And a 1000 year old home is worth more than a 200 year old home. And a 200 year old home is worth more than a 100 year old home. And a 100 year old home is worth more than a 10 year old home.
Of course, part of that historic significance is who designed the home, and who lived in the home, and if any important historical events occurred in or at that home.
And in many cases, one can't just tear something down without first obtaining a demolition permit. And for some areas, that permit process could take up to 2 years, especially if the home has historic significance. And for some building departments, they will not issue a demolition permit until they have reviewed and approved the proposed new structures that will replace what is being demolished.
- John Stewart, "nwhome.us"
- Contributions:2166
I don't think that it is particularly uncommon for buyers to begin to feel possessive prior to a transaction being recorded correctly at the county. They tend to act out that possessive behavior in different ways.
However:
Did they receive permission to bring the machinery onto the property? If they did, the standard NWMLS agreement requires that the property be returned to it's original condition once the testing is complete.
A feasibility contingency could easily include a request for a perk test. There isn't another way to determine if the property perks for the larger home.
However:
Did they receive permission to bring the machinery onto the property? If they did, the standard NWMLS agreement requires that the property be returned to it's original condition once the testing is complete.
A feasibility contingency could easily include a request for a perk test. There isn't another way to determine if the property perks for the larger home.
- Joss McDaid, "Joss McDaid"
- Contributions:28
It is wrong, no if-ands-or-buts about it. It is not their property, and they do not have a contract that allows them this type of property inspection. If they go further, and have a "government official" onto the property (such as the County inspector), they are risking a lawsuit by the current owner for any damages/changes/modification/alerations to the property.
If you are not an agent you should consult an attorney in regards to a "cease and desist" order on the potential Buyers until they can present an acceptable offer.
If you are not an agent you should consult an attorney in regards to a "cease and desist" order on the potential Buyers until they can present an acceptable offer.
- Pasadenan
- Contributions:21466
If the inspection agreement states they can expose the access; then they can expose the access.
As for liability? That is what owners buy liability insurance for, and no-one that owns a backhoe is going to be using it without being licensed, bonded, and insured.
And there is little possibility of the "buyer" having their own backhoe.
Anger? No anger here.... someone is reading something between the lines that is not there.
As for liability? That is what owners buy liability insurance for, and no-one that owns a backhoe is going to be using it without being licensed, bonded, and insured.
And there is little possibility of the "buyer" having their own backhoe.
Anger? No anger here.... someone is reading something between the lines that is not there.
- Golden Girl 542
- Contributions:17
Pasadenan,
...such anger.... sorry to offend your senses so!
Correct, I am not "in" this deal, just concerned for the person/people who are. I may be nosy, but I am also shocked at the nerve of the buyer and looking for other opinions. You do not need to know my relation to this person, unless you are also nosy. As for bringing in the sheriff, that would definately ruffle feathers in a small community, but I too think they have no business ripping into the ground until the deal is signed. They are trying to look into the septic and drainage.
...such anger.... sorry to offend your senses so!
Correct, I am not "in" this deal, just concerned for the person/people who are. I may be nosy, but I am also shocked at the nerve of the buyer and looking for other opinions. You do not need to know my relation to this person, unless you are also nosy. As for bringing in the sheriff, that would definately ruffle feathers in a small community, but I too think they have no business ripping into the ground until the deal is signed. They are trying to look into the septic and drainage.
- Matt Pickett, "Colorado_Springs"
- Contributions:379
What id he gets hurt on the property. The owners are liable. Not a good idea
- Pasadenan
- Contributions:21466
I'm baffled how a 3rd party that is neither the buyer nor the seller, nor even an agent for one of them would have any clue what the agreement was between the people involved with the contract.
If one was the seller, certainly they would have complained to the buyer's agent to have the issue resolved, and would have contacted the local police or sheriff to report the trespassing and vandalism.
And certainly, if one was the buyer, one wouldn't waste their time, effort, and resources on a property that doesn't belong to them, and likely won't belong to them.
And if one was just a nosy observant neighbor? What difference does it make what is in someone else's contract and agreement?
If one was the seller, certainly they would have complained to the buyer's agent to have the issue resolved, and would have contacted the local police or sheriff to report the trespassing and vandalism.
And certainly, if one was the buyer, one wouldn't waste their time, effort, and resources on a property that doesn't belong to them, and likely won't belong to them.
And if one was just a nosy observant neighbor? What difference does it make what is in someone else's contract and agreement?
- Hamp Yonce, "Zilluminati"
- Contributions:3463
That is so wrong. Do you know whether or not they have the Seller's permission? If they do, it may be less wrong, and just risky and dumb on their part.
Wrong does not equal illegal. Right does not equal legal.
I'm not a lawyer. loan officer, brain surgeon, or rocket scientist, but I am an American. I am speaking my opinion.
Wrong does not equal illegal. Right does not equal legal.
I'm not a lawyer. loan officer, brain surgeon, or rocket scientist, but I am an American. I am speaking my opinion.
- Tiffany Bond, "TiffanyBond"
- Contributions:3010
That's an attorney question - but I think your instincts are right (personal opinion, not a legal one). I would be calling the police if I saw a buyer show up with a backhoe.
Is it legal for a buyer to begin dirt work on a property they are still in negotiations in?
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