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Answers (18)
- Beth Grotelueschen, "bethghomes"
- Contributions:765
Just curious how large the home is & how often you'll need the heat since this post is under US, but no specific State or location. I just represented buyers for an old home that through the inspection we found the baseboard electric heaters to be very old & inefficient. The house was plumbed for central heating, but the ducting was old as well & oil heat (tank decommissioned). When my homeowners & I asked the inspector about switching over to gas heat, because it was not a large home & Seattle is fairly moderate climate, that they replace the baseboards with cadet heaters. This was the easiest & most cost effective solution. All told I think they had 4-5 heaters (that they can control by room) & electricians charged $800 to install them (The heaters themselves were $100/piece) so $1300 total.
I do agree that if in the MLS it said electric heat was the source & you had the baseboards then there wasn't any misrepresentation. If, however, like mentioned on previous answers, they had FWA & that was claimed by the listing agent, then you might have something. Good inspectors are so worth it- you would have at least known what you were dealing with & been able to address it before you were cold & wondering why.
Good luck~
I do agree that if in the MLS it said electric heat was the source & you had the baseboards then there wasn't any misrepresentation. If, however, like mentioned on previous answers, they had FWA & that was claimed by the listing agent, then you might have something. Good inspectors are so worth it- you would have at least known what you were dealing with & been able to address it before you were cold & wondering why.
Good luck~
- wavehp
- Contributions:2
you can go to the website of "wave heat pump" (google it). This company supply HVAC and water-heating solutions with air-water heat pumps and they do well.
- Pasadenan
- Contributions:21426
Another possibility is to put the heat strips at the supply air registers in each room. That way the heat can be set for each room independently, and thus only providing the heat where needed. Of course one does want to make sure that additional thermostats are not competing with one another so that you don't get heating simultaneous with cooling.
- Pasadenan
- Contributions:21426
Heat strips in the unit may be much more efficient than using a Heat Pump. Again, it depends on outside air temperature and losses in the piping systems. You don't need a heat pump to compensate; there is nothing to compensate for.
The advantage of heat strips in the blower unit is that you will only be heating the already heated room air, and you will not have much heat losses. Thus all that energy goes directly into the heat needed. The heat strips will cycle on and off as needed as determined by the thermostat. If you did the windows as mentioned, and you have good insulation, the time that the heat strips are on should be fairly short, but also depends on the size you select. You likely already have a set-back thermostat, but if not, you would likely change that as well so that the heating is reduced when people are asleep. As you also need a circuit for them from the panel and a contactor, it likely would be a bit more than $300. If small enough (1800 watts or less) you could do a "line voltage thermostat" to eliminate the need for a contactor, but a contactor is really no big deal.
Again, you want to either check with a mechanical engineer or a good HVAC contractor.
The advantage of heat strips in the blower unit is that you will only be heating the already heated room air, and you will not have much heat losses. Thus all that energy goes directly into the heat needed. The heat strips will cycle on and off as needed as determined by the thermostat. If you did the windows as mentioned, and you have good insulation, the time that the heat strips are on should be fairly short, but also depends on the size you select. You likely already have a set-back thermostat, but if not, you would likely change that as well so that the heating is reduced when people are asleep. As you also need a circuit for them from the panel and a contactor, it likely would be a bit more than $300. If small enough (1800 watts or less) you could do a "line voltage thermostat" to eliminate the need for a contactor, but a contactor is really no big deal.
Again, you want to either check with a mechanical engineer or a good HVAC contractor.
- ljsrh
- Contributions:3
@efenter, Bless you for making me feel better! :) I'm glad to hear that we weren't the only ones that didn't think to check the heat. Yes, we live in the south too and bought the house in May, so the a/c was very important.
@pasadenan, We've already considered the heat strips. The unit currently doesn't have any and they would cost us around 300.00 to have installed. But both companies said that they would drastically raise our electric bill because there would be no heat pump to compensate. (we lived in a mobile home prior to our purchase and had only the strips and our bills were 400.00+/month in the winter.) Right now, we are leaning toward not installing the strips, because if we have to replace the unit, this would be 300.00 down the drain. But thanks for the advice of calling the appraiser. I don't see how she could be held liable, but she could maybe explain how she came up with FWA. Also, I'll have my husband check about adding the gas heat to the existing system. We didn't think of this.
@Jeff Hahn, Yes we had a buyers agent and no, we did not have a licensed inspector. We had some friends of ours (contractors) help us with the inspection.
@pasadenan, We've already considered the heat strips. The unit currently doesn't have any and they would cost us around 300.00 to have installed. But both companies said that they would drastically raise our electric bill because there would be no heat pump to compensate. (we lived in a mobile home prior to our purchase and had only the strips and our bills were 400.00+/month in the winter.) Right now, we are leaning toward not installing the strips, because if we have to replace the unit, this would be 300.00 down the drain. But thanks for the advice of calling the appraiser. I don't see how she could be held liable, but she could maybe explain how she came up with FWA. Also, I'll have my husband check about adding the gas heat to the existing system. We didn't think of this.
@Jeff Hahn, Yes we had a buyers agent and no, we did not have a licensed inspector. We had some friends of ours (contractors) help us with the inspection.
- Pasadenan
- Contributions:21426
Jeff -
It would help if you read the posts; the original poster already answered those questions! Every time I read a comment like yours from a Realtor® I can't help thinking that NAR means "Not About to Read". Please help improve my impression of members of NAR by reading the existing posts before posting.
It would help if you read the posts; the original poster already answered those questions! Every time I read a comment like yours from a Realtor® I can't help thinking that NAR means "Not About to Read". Please help improve my impression of members of NAR by reading the existing posts before posting.
- Jeff Hahn, "Jeff Hahn"
- Contributions:120
Did you have a Realtor representing you?
Did you have the home inspected?
Did you have the home inspected?
- efenter
- Contributions:43
This is a great question for all buyers to read, first time, or experienced. I never would think to look at heat, living in Texas, but ALWAYS make sure that the a/c works. I am so sorry to hear about your situation, but am glad that you shared your experience with the rest of us. There is some really good info here, and also some really brash coments, too!
Please let us know how it is resoloved, and what the outcome is, and if anyone is liable.
Please let us know how it is resoloved, and what the outcome is, and if anyone is liable.
- Pasadenan
- Contributions:21426
I guess I was deceived by "a house we purchased a couple months ago"... I'm a literalist, and to me "couple" means 2, and if you meant more than 2 you would have said "few" (typically 3, but could be 4 or 5), or several (typically 6 or more).
Heat pumps are still electric devices and not necessarily any more cost effective or efficient than baseboard electric heaters. It depends on the ambient temperature outside where you are "cooling" the air, and the losses in the duct-work and coolant piping. And you also have to drive the fan, which you don't run with baseboard radiant heating.
No, I don't blame you for wanting to get rid of baseboard heaters, but that choice means you chose to pay for another heat source.
Personally, I wouldn't do a heat pump replacement in your situation, but would look into adding gas heating into the existing air handling unit in the attic. This could mean adding a heating coil in addition to the existing cooling coil, and piping that to a new boiler of some kind. Or it could mean heating air directly in a separate box that is connected into the ducting system with dampers.
If your husband is in construction, he has connections and can ask around. Likely someone will know someone that can solve your problem for a reasonable cost and get you an efficient system.
And no, "central a/c" never means "heating", it only means "air conditioning", which specifically means "cooling". Only if they specifically state "heat pump" can you expect it to be. Essentially, in a heat pump it is an air conditioning system with the compressor run backward. But you can't run many compressors backward. It has to be designed that way. Electrically, the load can be about the same, but it depends on the specific heating and cooling needs. In some cases, additional electric strip heaters still have to be added to the unit to get enough heat.
And yes, adding electric strip heaters to the blower unit in the attic may be an option also. For all you know at this time, they may even be there.
Again, check with your appraiser to see where they got the "FWA" in the appraisal description. Appraisers don't just write things randomly; they must have had some documentation, unless it was just a careless error from editing a previous inspection report for something else.
Heat pumps are still electric devices and not necessarily any more cost effective or efficient than baseboard electric heaters. It depends on the ambient temperature outside where you are "cooling" the air, and the losses in the duct-work and coolant piping. And you also have to drive the fan, which you don't run with baseboard radiant heating.
No, I don't blame you for wanting to get rid of baseboard heaters, but that choice means you chose to pay for another heat source.
Personally, I wouldn't do a heat pump replacement in your situation, but would look into adding gas heating into the existing air handling unit in the attic. This could mean adding a heating coil in addition to the existing cooling coil, and piping that to a new boiler of some kind. Or it could mean heating air directly in a separate box that is connected into the ducting system with dampers.
If your husband is in construction, he has connections and can ask around. Likely someone will know someone that can solve your problem for a reasonable cost and get you an efficient system.
And no, "central a/c" never means "heating", it only means "air conditioning", which specifically means "cooling". Only if they specifically state "heat pump" can you expect it to be. Essentially, in a heat pump it is an air conditioning system with the compressor run backward. But you can't run many compressors backward. It has to be designed that way. Electrically, the load can be about the same, but it depends on the specific heating and cooling needs. In some cases, additional electric strip heaters still have to be added to the unit to get enough heat.
And yes, adding electric strip heaters to the blower unit in the attic may be an option also. For all you know at this time, they may even be there.
Again, check with your appraiser to see where they got the "FWA" in the appraisal description. Appraisers don't just write things randomly; they must have had some documentation, unless it was just a careless error from editing a previous inspection report for something else.
- ljsrh
- Contributions:3
Ok, thanks for your help. I'll answer a few of your questions. The inspection... My husband works in construction, though he is not a contractor. We have some close friends who are contractors and they agreed to come and go through the house with us as an alternative to paying an inspector. We were going to have a licensed heat and air tech come inspect it, but the system looked fairly new, so they thought we wouldn't have to. They did check out all the other systems and everything seemed fine. But for checking the heating system, they turned on the thermostat and everything worked fine. Like I said before, we didn't know that there even was such a thing as central a/c with no heat. So yes, we made a mistake with the inspection. @Pasadenan, We have owned the home for a little over 6 months now. So we did not "pull so much out in 60 days". The a/c blower is in the attic, all vents and duct work in place, with 2 air returns located in the hallway ceiling. And our gas logs do not have a blower. And about the baseboard heaters, we don't have them anymore so reinstalling them is not an option. We chose to remove them for 3 reasons. 1. we have an almost 2 yr old, and do not want anything within her easy reach. ( I can just see her letting her blankie lay on one, sticking stuff in them, etc.) 2. when we took one apart to see how to remove them, the condition of this thing was awful. Years of dust, hair, and rust inside. yes, a fire hazard in my opinion. 3. We both knew if we used these things our electric bills would be terrible. They are not very efficient. Needless to say, We do not regret pulling these things out. But had we known everything, we might have installed a heating system instead of replacing the windows. (We have already used almost all of the 1500 tax credit with the windows, so it would not benefit us to replace it quickly in hopes of getting another 1500.) @hardwrkr, removing the heaters did not require replacing drywall. They were simply mounted to the drywall, and floor, and the wiring was run thru the floor into the crawl space. So we just redid the trim/baseboard. We did have a buyers real estate agent and he agreed with us that the heaters would not be very efficient. You said you were getting quotes to add a heat pump? So maybe that is a possibility for us? the tech that came to check the system said you cant just add one to an existing system because of some for law they just passed. That we'd have to replace the entire thing, which is a shame since the inside unit is only about 3 yrs old and the outside unit he said was about 5.
No we didn't have an FHA loan, it was USDA. And our broker said they have a lot of the same requirements.
In short, my husband is thinking its our fault for not checking it more thoroughly. I guess everyone has to learn sometime. :)
No we didn't have an FHA loan, it was USDA. And our broker said they have a lot of the same requirements.
In short, my husband is thinking its our fault for not checking it more thoroughly. I guess everyone has to learn sometime. :)
- Pasadenan
- Contributions:21426
There is also the possibility that there was gas heat on the air conditioning package unit 4 years ago and that was in the county records, but that the previous owner replaced it and didn't consider the heat at the time.
In that case, the appraiser would have just been careless pulling information from the county records without even checking.
Regardless, you should still have had a home inspection by a licensed home inspector, and the inspector's report should have listed all those details; but you don't mention the inspection report at all. Yes, some people consider it an unnecessary wasted expense, but it is precisely for reasons like this that most buyers choose to pay for a home inspection and make it a contingency for their purchase.
In that case, the appraiser would have just been careless pulling information from the county records without even checking.
Regardless, you should still have had a home inspection by a licensed home inspector, and the inspector's report should have listed all those details; but you don't mention the inspection report at all. Yes, some people consider it an unnecessary wasted expense, but it is precisely for reasons like this that most buyers choose to pay for a home inspection and make it a contingency for their purchase.
- Dan, "the_country_hick"
- Contributions:4691
Vince said " If FWA was listed in the MLS, I think you could after the Realtor for some of the costs."
I think he is probably correct. This is a tremendous error. Your purchase and subsequent remodel was based on the property having forced warm air heating. Had instead it said electric wall baseboard heat you either might not have bought the house ($5,000 to much expense to buy) or you would not have remodeled as you did.
The only way to know what to do is to talk to a lawyer (or a few) to see what they think about this. Take your paperwork (including MLS copies) and ask for a free initial consult. If you have a case they will let you know. If not, they will also let you know. Or you could go to your realtor and ask them what they think. You might even get support from them.
I think he is probably correct. This is a tremendous error. Your purchase and subsequent remodel was based on the property having forced warm air heating. Had instead it said electric wall baseboard heat you either might not have bought the house ($5,000 to much expense to buy) or you would not have remodeled as you did.
The only way to know what to do is to talk to a lawyer (or a few) to see what they think about this. Take your paperwork (including MLS copies) and ask for a free initial consult. If you have a case they will let you know. If not, they will also let you know. Or you could go to your realtor and ask them what they think. You might even get support from them.
- Pasadenan
- Contributions:21426
By the way, if the appraiser said it was "forced warm air", there would have to be a blower on the heating system somewhere, which there isn't for baseboard units, so I would contact the appraiser to find out where they got the information, and find out if there is another unit somewhere that you are unaware of.
(But maybe you took that out too? How would you remove so much in only 60 days?)
Did you check the attic? Have you looked for other ceiling, wall or floor vents?
(But maybe you took that out too? How would you remove so much in only 60 days?)
Did you check the attic? Have you looked for other ceiling, wall or floor vents?
- Pasadenan
- Contributions:21426
I hope you can find your baseboard heaters and put them back in!
I can't believe you pulled them out without even checking!
I can't believe you pulled them out without even checking!
- hardwrkr
- Contributions:12
Hi, Sorry but I purchased a home over a year ago and the heating was listed as electric - I have electric baseboard heating. Not the best but it is a small home and basically it does the job. I was a first time homebuyer too, so I feel like my agent should have explained how baseboard heating works more than she did. Anyway, I think that is why your listing may have said 'electric'. Now, I have received quotes from several contractors re getting a heat pump put in. I'm not sure why this wouldn't be an option for you - and plus, you already have the ductwork - which save thousands of dollars. Did you have a real estate agent? Did you have a home inspection..was this not in your inspection? Have you already had drywall put in where the old baseboards were? You might need to have the baseboard heaters reinstalled at least temporarily...but fyi there is a tax credit of up to $1500 if you get certain grades of heatpumps installed by 12/31...I have heard of electric panels not being able to handle the power of a heat pump, maybe that is the reason..?
- Vince Curtis, "SoCal Appraiser"
- Contributions:4699
DID u get a FHA loan, or conventional ? If a FHA loan, then you had a FHA appraisal, which yes is supposed to be more diligent than a Conventional appraisal. But keep in mind appraisers are not inspectors, and we dont like to be put into that role. FWA = Forced Warm Air Commonly referred to as a Furnace
What did your home inspector say ? Whats on the report ? The home inspector is your primary source for what is working or not working on a home. You should have read their report throughly to understand you only had electric heat.
Sounds like the appraiser may have checked the wrong box, but the MLS is your primary source for what the home has or does not have. If FWA was listed in the MLS, I think you could after the Realtor for some of the costs.
- Ryan Halset, "RyanHalset"
- Contributions:730
Hmm...you'd have to seek legal advice.
Because the MLS said it had electric heat...and it did...you may be out of luck. BUT, because the FHA appraiser said there was FWA (Forced Warm Air)...maybe you'd have a case if they are required to check all systems (and if FWA didn't apply to the gas fireplace).
Your heating (and source) would also be something that your inspector should point out, explain, and list in his/her report.
Sorry to hear about this - isn't home ownership fun?
Good luck!
Ryan Halset | Realtor ®
Boardwalk Real Estate | Seattle, Washington
Because the MLS said it had electric heat...and it did...you may be out of luck. BUT, because the FHA appraiser said there was FWA (Forced Warm Air)...maybe you'd have a case if they are required to check all systems (and if FWA didn't apply to the gas fireplace).
Your heating (and source) would also be something that your inspector should point out, explain, and list in his/her report.
Sorry to hear about this - isn't home ownership fun?
Good luck!
Ryan Halset | Realtor ®
Boardwalk Real Estate | Seattle, Washington
- SoCal_Engr
- Contributions:5661
What Zillow says counts for zero-zilch-zip. The MLS said it had electric, and you confirmed that by identifying the electric baseboard heaters. Unfortunately, you ripped these out - so they "worked" by default.
No one "pulled one over" on you all, so the other option is to chalk it up as a learning experience. Sounds like you get to pay for some heat. Welcome to home ownership.
No one "pulled one over" on you all, so the other option is to chalk it up as a learning experience. Sounds like you get to pay for some heat. Welcome to home ownership.
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