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Prices are Going to Significantly Lower

Profile picture for DebtsNMesses
Contributions: 6664
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Since July 2009

As most of you know, my husband has been out of work for 8 months now and counting. Last spring, when this first started, he was competing against about 400 other applications. On Tues some employer put out an ad... by Wed he had 800 applications and today he has 1200... nationwide responses on a local ad. Somehow, Thank GOD, my husband got a phone call.

There is NO way, with this kind of true unemployment being at 1 in 5 out of work, that home prices are even near the bottom, nor is any sort of 'recovery'.

Honestly, I'm not overly worried about US, as you all know we prepared for it, but I am greatly concerned about 'the people', every single person is being affected and all this hype about a 'jobless recovery', recession is ending, BS is just that. It's IMPOSSIBLE to sustain these rediculous housing prices with so many people out of work.

I can honestly see another 50% drop coming... anyone care to name their number? We can meet back here next year and compare! lol
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November 06 - US

Replies (104)

Profile picture for TiffanyBond
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Since August 2009

I can't link it since it was just on the tv news, but they were talking about "real" unemployment (including under-employed and those who have given up completely) being upwards of 17% - yikes!
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November 06
Profile picture for jkonstant
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Since May 2009

I don't dare make a prediction as I am not qualified. I do hope they fall to a level that doesn't require two incomes to pay for shelter.
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November 07
Profile picture for TiffanyBond
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Since August 2009

As far as predictions, I think it is going to really depend on area. Our Philly house was only $40k - how much could it possibly drop? Heck the mortgage is well under 400/mo (with PITI), and that is so much less than rent here.

But our Seattle area house? I cringe every time I look. There are many area in that region that are fine, and ours will be eventually because it is a really nice area and below the jumbo. Other areas? Most of California, full of unsustainable building (sure, let's build houses >1.5 hours from any area where there is living wage jobs, people will commute)? Florida, where a good portion of the population is retired ex pat's from New England (fixed income)?

Any area in the jumbo loan category is going to have a hard time. It is exceptionally difficult to get those houses loans right now and given the economy most folks aren't plunking down the amount in cash, even if they have it. Plus since there are such low sales in that category in most areas there are very few comps, which makes appraisal value an issue.

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November 07
Profile picture for Caveat Emptor
Contributions: 5875
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Since January 2009

as of yesterday, its 17.5% who fall into the fallowing criteria:

Total unemployed (10.2%)
plus all marginally attached workers(unemployed persons removed from the labor force when able and willing to work, because of economic reasons)(1.6%)
plus total employed less than full time for economic reasons(5.7%)

as you may know, the govt numbers are not reflective of a lot of things. many economists say that unemployment is above 20% already.
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November 07
Profile picture for White Picture
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Since March 2009

If we included the homemakers (no income) then the unemployment rate is above 50%.
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November 07
Profile picture for Caveat Emptor
Contributions: 5875
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Since January 2009

the only way shelter costs will fall far enough that 1 person can easily afford PITI, will be if Americans as a whole wake up and start sequestering a portion of their paycheck for future use.

whats really sad though is that american people are so indifferent to one another, that the tone of the country has hardly sobered at all. you read depression era papers where the unemployment rate(which was counted the same way as u6 data is now, total labor force - unemployed, none of this "falling off" of unemployment numbers) at its peak was just 7.5% higher than it is now... Americans have become asholes


... what do you call this? kool-ade? its good.
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November 07
Profile picture for Lady Chattel
Contributions: 2630
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Since October 2009

Didn't the gov't just finally release/admit that unemplyment was at 10% which means it is much more than that.  This whole crud about Swine flu.....it is a total distraction to keep American's from fearing the economy and what is really goiing wrong.  


I agree with you NTETS, there is this ignorance of what is going on.....people seem to not be worried or concerned,  I think too many people feel like we are just too big to fail.......LMAO.
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November 07
Profile picture for Lady Chattel
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Since October 2009

If you take the highest unelmployment rate during the Great Depression and the population compared to the unemployment today compared to our population...sure the percentages are different but the numbers of poeple are actual people without work, no income, strugglings...there are more people unemployed today than during the worst year during the Great Depression....
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November 07
Profile picture for DYeh
Contributions: 188

I really hope all these comments about our economic down turns are at the extreme negative end.  I'd like to believe we are on the track to a recovery if even it's slow.  The housing sales is up, the consumer confidence is up, the stock is heading up regardless the 10.2% unemployment... many many indicators are showing position ways.  I've been battling to purchase a home in Austin. A Certain bracket of the homes are not moving, nor pricing changes.  I think the statements of more lower housing prices really only affect majority part of real estates, but not some others. 
Please don't forget. Americans had also made a lot of money during the boom. We just have to spend carefully on what we have right now to ride out this tough time.  It was nice to be able to eat out almost everyday in the past, but now, not able to eat out doesn't mean we are starving/suffering. Most of us are just got too used to live in comfortable life style, and cry for anything less than luxuries.

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November 07
Profile picture for VivianneRutkowski
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Since September 2009

"Americans had also made a lot of money during the boom."

DYeh,

Actually, this is NOT exactly true.

According to the last Census, the 2001-2007 economic expension was heavily skewed towards high-income Americans rather than broadly shared by the entire population. The top 1% of households -one percent- received 2/3 of the growth in national income. 

At the same time the income of a median household fell to its lowest level since 1997. 

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November 07
Profile picture for azrob
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Since January 2009

income has not really increased, meanwhile many necessities have increased faster than income: education, health care, energy, etc.

Signs, at the very best, are mixed; employment is still dropping, state/city/county budgets are in shambles, and the federal deficit is unsustainable. We have small positive GDP, but we won't know if this is a new trend, or a temporary reversal due to cash for clunkers, cash for clunker homes, stimulus funded construction etc.

Keep in mind that several of the best stockmarket rallies of all time happened from 1929 to 1934, so don't let that one datum influence your thinking too much.

Only time will tell.
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November 07
Profile picture for Caveat Emptor
Contributions: 5875
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Since January 2009

Dyeh

stocks are an indicator of SENTIMENT, and a sentiment of a very very detached group of people who live in ivory towers and worry about insignificant things(like whether the prime rate is at zero or 1% while the average credit card apr shot up 16% in the most recent quarter).

i will state that the comments i have made are not ment to be sentimental(not "negative" not "emotional"), the data i provided was taken directly from friday's news release... they are meant to be inflamitory, but sometimes its good to step back and look at the big picture.

this rally was predictable, but the holidays will be tough with 20% of Americans doing more with less.
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November 08
Profile picture for TiffanyBond
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Since August 2009

I think they are also pushing "healthcare" to pull people's minds off the economy too. Why else would they be pushing a bill that doesn't accomplish hardly anything they are touting and costs a ridiculous amount of money AND drives up healthcare costs for nearly all Americans?

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November 08
Profile picture for Caveat Emptor
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Since January 2009

well, its backfiring, people are angry that obama took his eyes off "the prize". now granted, i agree with his decision to see what effect the stimulus would have, but he picked the worst possible time to fight for healthcare reform, and then he made a mess of it anyway.

all i wanted to see.

1) insurance companies are required to accept all applicants at "standard" rates.
2) subsidies for lower income people to get it, if they want it.
3) medical care must be 100% covered after the $10,000 mark.
4) national insurance board with national standards

mandatory coverage, i can deal with because it makes it cheaper for everyone, and because low income people expect to be taken care of either way... that's not cool

the private plan idea was just dumb.any efficiencies you could get through competition, you could get through regulation.

but hey, 0 of 4 isnt bad, they only had 11 months and 500 pages to do it in

senate must approve another version, then both versions get watered down and porked up, then both the house and senate votes again

but this is what congress approved yesterday, here
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November 08
Profile picture for Lady Chattel
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Since October 2009

I will vote for you NTETS.

Vivienne.......wow, I didn't expect that from you ;-)
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November 08
Profile picture for DebtsNMesses
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Since July 2009

The real unemployment rate is at least 8% higher than the 10.2% they gave us because the 10.2% doesn't count the people that have exhausted their unemployment, so we are at 18.2% if we count it right. --But the economists are right when they say over 20%, since mortgage brokers, real estate agents, and much of our construction industry isn't even eligible for unemployment.

Now the underemployment rate is another story, since many people have now taken drastic reductions in pay to get off unemployment. lol

The congressman that said 17% also said we are looking at a collapse of the middle class. I couldn't find the link, but he was a congressman who was asked about the healthcare bill, and he said he didn't care about that, he was worried with a 17% unemployment rate and the middle class was collapsing! lol
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November 08
Profile picture for Caveat Emptor
Contributions: 5875
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Since January 2009

i agree viv, kudos for citing a legitimate source, apropriate to a discussion at hand.

debts, google "u6" or click the link i posted, that data does calculate for people who drop off the payrolls and out of the labor force inexplicably. that is also where that 17.5% number comes from

mtg brokers and REAs aren't out of work, they are just slim pickings atm
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November 08
Profile picture for VivianneRutkowski
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Since September 2009

"Vivienne.......wow, I didn't expect that from you ;-) "

Lady,

I am a CITIZEN first, and a REALTOR distant second.
And I only quoted the Census ;-)

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November 08
Profile picture for Caveat Emptor
Contributions: 5875
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Since January 2009

yeah, sure... make me king for a day. so much would be changed.

you know my solution to financial company's pay packages?
i dont have one...

instead, i would go to the FTC, and tell every company listed on the NYSE that they need to abide by certain rules, in addition to their insider trading rules. its not in the best interest of the shareholders to pay the CEO 15 billion... not by a long shot. so, private companies can pay their employees whatever they want, companies that sell shares to elderly gentiles have to manage their administration budget so that:

1) it doesn't exceed 10% of the cost to operate the company
2) the lowest paid worker at the company makes a percentage of the highest paid worker
3) doesnt exceed 5 million / year /any 1 employee
4) all stock options are exercisable at any time, but sale is prohibited until the stock has vested for 5 years
(i would however re-institute glass steigal, break up several natural monopolies in many industries, require all buisnesses to brand their product so we know who makes it(really), etc, etc.

congress reform:

1) congressional pay is reduced to as follows:
    ~ a fantastic health, dental coverage(20 dollar copay, no lifetime max)
    ~ 50,000 retirement fund(per term)
    ~ 500 per month for life (6000 per year)
>why? because it shouldn't be a career. it should be like it was when the country was created. a service, a sacrifice to make your country great.
2) 2 3 year term limits, switching from senate to house does not count.
3) minimum barriers to entry (PhD or MD)
4) sequestration of the lobbying industry
5) eliminate parliamentary procedure, implement common sense procedure... etc etc
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November 08
Profile picture for TiffanyBond
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I'm not a fan of the "can't opt out" feature of the bill. I want the right to say your system stinks and I won't pay for it. I am going to spend my money with company/doctor "x" and negotiate the fee for services rendered. Currently, I have insurance but I go back and forth on the issue and frequently self-insure for long periods of time. So far paying cash for services has been a much better deal for pretty much everyone in my family, old or young. When I did have insurance and I had a procedure I ended up paying such a sizeable chunk of it, I might as well have been putting money in a savings account and then written a check. The price likely would have been lower.

The stupid bill fixes nothing. Thank you for posting the link. I'll have to give it a read. I read most of the original bill and it was full of melarchy.
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November 08
Profile picture for DebtsNMesses
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NT, I don't want a minimum education on Congress. Sorry, but I know a lot of people with good old fashioned common sense who don't have fancy educations. I also know a lot of people with no common sense and fancy degrees. lol

Did you all hear? They want to put me in jail for 5 years for NOT having healthcare insurance and a $250,000 fine. Excuse me? I'm getting jail for paying my bills cash? This is such BS.

We were told we must buy the king's high priced tea... and look where that got them! I smell a rEVOLution.
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November 08
Profile picture for Pasadenan
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There is no "health care" in the United States, and never can be as long as AMA has a monopoly, and as long as there are "insurance companies" that try to act as middlemen with pre-negotiated agreements on what they will pay for services and what services they won't pay for, and as long as there are pharmaceutical companies pushing "drugs" with current patents to the exclusion of more natural remedies with longer histories, and as long as FDA requires "double blind studies" before anything can be used, and as long as surgeons keep recommending cutting people up and replacing parts rather than making the body heal itself and function more holistically, and as long as the cancer societies keep recommending poisoning people with Chemo and radiation ignoring all dietary and environmental impacts, and expanding cancer so that they can continue to collect money for "research".

The only "solution" is to get an alternative to AMA to compete with AMA.  But that alternative was essentially put out of business by the AMA about 100 years ago due to the same deceptive practices we see today.  It is as likely to get an alternative to AMA as it is to get an alternative to NAR.  Those in control won't let it happen.

Yes, I pay for insurance, but that is only so that they won't take my house away from me when I get hit by a truck.

And though Obama states more competition will lower costs; it works the opposite with insurance companies.  The more "members" an insurance company has, the more leverage they have with the providers to LOWER the costs, shifting the costs to other insurance companies and other "customers".  Thus, likely my insurance rates will go up with no change in "benifits" (that I never plan to use), and I likely won't qualify for any "government option" even though my business is very small.

Yes, we "need" health care reform, but it can't be legislated from top down.  It must come from the bottom up.  But the "bill" was about saving the cost balance for Medicare and nothing else.  The "giveaways" to the insurance industry and pharmaceuticals was just to get "buy in".


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November 08
Profile picture for Caveat Emptor
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i do too, but i also know a lot of idiots... if you can design a test that actually tests for common sense without being an ideological bias or worse yet a "commercial" bias, feel free to insert here, until that time i cant remove the minimum barrier to entry... unfortunately i still don't know how to stop large lobbying groups from submitting their own candidates. what i can do is create a larger pool of options for the people and limit the impact of wealth as a defacto "minimum barrier to entry"

debts, if you want to pay your bills cash, you can purchase a "bond" from an insurance company and be self-insured--
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November 08
Profile picture for Caveat Emptor
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maybe 50 years after my k-12 reform gets enacted, then you could expect anyone in america to rise to the challenge, but not untill we are a couple generations into it
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November 08
Profile picture for TiffanyBond
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Since August 2009

Perfect, you can pay an insurance company to have to not pay an insurance company.
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November 08
Profile picture for Caveat Emptor
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i know, awesome right?
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November 08
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Mack McCoy

Seattle WA

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Since October 2009

The thing about the word, "another," is that it indicates that it's not the first of a series.

To my knowledge, Phoenix and Las Vegas are the only markets for which the Case-Shiller Index shows a 50% drop from the peak.

Nationwide, the CSI is down not quite 30% from the peak. To get to 50% the first time would require about another 30% drop from today.

Anything can happen. I'd take that bet, however, if I was assured of being paid off if I won.
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November 08
Profile picture for VivianneRutkowski
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"1) congressional pay is reduced to as follows:
    ~ a fantastic health, dental coverage(20 dollar copay, no lifetime max)
    ~ 50,000 retirement fund(per term)
    ~ 500 per month for life (6000 per year)
>why? because it shouldn't be a career. it should be like it was when the country was created. a service, a sacrifice to make your country great."

NTETS,
Why do you think that limiting congressional pay to $6,000 per year would necesarily make a positive difference?

All it would accomplish is allow ONLY very wealthy to run for Congress....as no one without a gold mine would be able to afford to serve in Congress.

Sure, in theory, wealthy people are supposed to be "independent" of outside influences.....because they can afford it.....

In reality, many wealthy people are wealthy because they skillfully used labists for their own benefit.... and they do NOT necessarily care about the greater good...

Limiting a congressional pay to $6,000k per year would keep many intelligent good citizens with great ideas and good instincts, who love this country out of the Congress.....simply because they could not afford it... 

NOTE: The above is only a personal opinion. 
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November 08
Profile picture for Caveat Emptor
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Since January 2009

i wouldn't take either side of that bet. as far as i can tell, it could literally go either way, there is certainly nothing that suggests that this is over by a mile... even NAR agrees that without the subsidy the housing price level would have fallen an additional 5% this year (and overall case-shiller is still negative yoy) so it seems like a wild side of the bet to take... at least the bears can point to supply side data that supports their position.

however, if a doomer wishes to take the bet, i would be happy to pay 5% a year interest and hold both side's wager in an account until 2012-2016 when both sides agree that an upward trend has firmly established itself at a bottom... you know me, Mr neutral 0.o

you would have my assurance that the winner would be paid off, and i would cover the taxes(since billing you 40 cents per year would be a little stupid)
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November 08
Profile picture for Caveat Emptor
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actually 6000 per year for life is a pretty sweet deal. isn't there a lottery game that operates on a similar principal? obviously i would want them to be taken care of in Washington (food, shelter, access to awesome historical pieces not accessible to the public... tele, net, cells...), but i imagine a vastly different personality type would be interested in my little plan than what you see there today. i would even say 6,000 after tax and indexed to inflation, and the number is flexible. its more about putting people in office who are interested in civic duty, rather than self preservation. senioraty and career mentality have to go, and replacing that with an entire generation of people who aspire to get rich off of the system is inefficient. i think 50,000 in a retirement fund compounded for 30+ years is a pretty big incentive all by itself... college professors and other professionals do this all the time, its called a sabbatical. also netwoerkig with these people would be a once in a lifetime oppourtunity.

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