Socialism and Redistributing the Wealth

I had a conversation with a republican in my office yesterday when he brought up ‘redistributing wealth’. I explained to him when you close a factory in the US and take it to Mexico or China you get this…
1000s of people in the US out of jobs
The price of the product has NOT decreased
The profit of the product has increased
ONE person is making a ton of money
1000s of people are making none
1000s of people are too poor to afford his product
1000s of people are out of a job, not paying taxes and are now looking to the government for assistance

VERSUS

Keep the jobs here
1000s of people are making a descent living
The owner is still making a ton of money b/c now people have jobs and can buy his product
Moral is up b/c workers are not displaced & can take care of their family

Tell me… how is this socialism? And how is the first scenario putting ‘COUNTRY FIRST’ - I think it should be 'CEO FIRST' ? AARRGGGHHH
  • October 21 2008 - US
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Answers (246)

Profile picture for Mr Caveat

exactly which policy were you discussing? i thought most reps were into bending over backwards for corp america???

  • October 21 2008
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Profile picture for BMFPitt

That's not socialism you're asking for, it's protectionism.

  • October 21 2008
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That's not socialism you're asking for, it's protectionism.

??protectionism??

I was stating that having 1000s of people with jobs instead of ONE person making a ton of money using child labor in another country is NOT 'socialism'
  • October 21 2008
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Profile picture for Mr Caveat

oh, lol yes that makes much more sense :P

 

protectionism here leads to protectionism elsewhere, you think the exonomy is slow now, ramp up terrifs so china cant compete with us here... you just watch china do the same thing...then the'll call all our debts since we have basically stopped trading with them and then? well lets just say its about time to bruch up on your chinese.

 

  • October 21 2008
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Profile picture for Mr Caveat

thats tarrifs^_)^

  • October 21 2008
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Okay... that is taking it to the extreme.

However, I do not believe we need to have huge tax incentives for companies to move their production out of this country.
  • October 21 2008
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Profile picture for Mr Caveat

what do you think we need to do? lower wages to compete with china? loosen regs so that supervision and oversight dont HAVE to account for 10% of a company's gross profit? if no action is needed then you have very boring convos with your friend

  • October 21 2008
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It's smart business practice to move someplace where taxes and labor costs are cheaper. Especially when you consider the Americans will still buy the product and by lowering the costs you increase your international customer base. It makes stock holders happy.



The U.S. tax system is abusive and all levels of government are wasteful and hungry to spend more.



I cannot blame companies for leaving. Many Americans leave too because the taxes are over the top. Why don't we ever talk about them?

  • October 21 2008
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Profile picture for Mr Caveat

or maybe just ban companies who operate in china to do buisness with us? same effect as tarrifs, but with the added slap in the face

  • October 21 2008
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I'm not proposing anything as extreme or ignorant as banning other companies or trade. However, we need to look at incentives for business to stay in the states. we need jobs here. This is a discussion... other than the extreme ideas, what are your ideas for keeping business in the US to help keep jobs here?
  • October 21 2008
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What do you expect when you want WalMart prices? Paying US wages means higher prices to the consumer. I am willing to pay more for that, but a majority of America is not...market forces are driving those choices. If you want to keep jobs here, then vote for that with your spending. If you shop at places like WalMart you are VOTING with every dollar you spend for that model. Most people that complain about outsourcing shop at places that necessitated outsourcing.



You want to keep jobs here? Shop at farmers markets, purchase locally made goods (but be prepared to pay several thousand dollars for a piece of furniture instead of $200 at Target), etc. I buy local, but hey...I also find times when I don't feel like whittling a widget and I cannot easily find what I need made locally.



You are arguing legislation and policy for a market force. The bottom line is: outsourcing is your fault; it is my fault; it is everyone's fault. We demand lower prices at any cost, that is the cost.

  • October 21 2008
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we have lost to many jobs in the US and we have not created new ones. We need incentives for factories to build here. Too many people rely on these jobs and we just keep taking them away to increase the size of the CEOs purse. What are the benefits to the US for outsourcing everything?
  • October 21 2008
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Rachel:

 

We created this situation. It is a consumer-created issue. If we aren't willing to pay the price for goods produced in the US, then they will be outsourced - period. There is very little we can do with policy to impact this. It is not feaible to offer the amount of tax credits/subsidy we would need to compete with areas that are "free zones" (without any taxes) and provide labor at $1/day.

 

You want to keep jobs here? Make new ones? Then focus on education and go back to being an invention/entreprenuership hub, loosen bankrupcy laws to encourage business owners to take risks, migrate to the service industries, etc. Most of these are personal choices, not policy. As a nation we are becoming increasingly complacent and lazy, while being entitled and demanding a high premium for our hourly rate.

  • October 21 2008
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oops...."feasible"

  • October 21 2008
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thanks Tiffany - I understand your point. My uncle worked at GE for 20 years and made too much money for too little work. There needs to be a lot of things overhauled. However, look at the past few years and the companies that have gone overseas or across the border to make their products. Prices for these products did not go down when the location changed. The only thing that had a significant change was larger profit of the company owners.

I recently got back from Maine for a long weekend. I loved to see how the islanders there lived - very simple and almost everything was local production and consumption.
  • October 21 2008
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Profile picture for BMFPitt

If you think you can start a business here that is competitive with China on everything except for CEO pay, then you should start one.  Good luck.

  • October 21 2008
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And if you just need to write short jabs grab a pencil and paper. This is a discussion. You are more than welcome to give me information as to the American benefits we have received over the last 5 years from outsourcing.
  • October 21 2008
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Although there may have been some increase in profit, I would argue that very likely outsourcing was the only way to keep prices from raising. It's sort of like how some prices are changing at the grocery store, the packages are just getting smaller. As a company, you don't want your consumer to have price increase - particularly on price-sensitive products.

  • October 21 2008
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Profile picture for BMFPitt

You are more than welcome to give me information as to the American benefits we have received over the last 5 years from outsourcing

 

Cheap Chinese crap at WalMart, as has already been stated.  Sure, you may say it's not worth it for that, but America has collectively voted with its wallet.

  • October 21 2008
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Here are a few articles for you:

 

http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2003/3044wal-mart.html

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_05/b3969401.htm

http://www.progressiveu.org/173142-wal-mart-rolling-back-america-part-2-outsourcing-and-anti-union-actions

 

  • October 21 2008
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It's a case of basic economics meets "be careful what you wish for".

  • October 21 2008
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Rachel, all very true- I think what most forget is that if 100 million people can afford to get their lawns mowed and stone walls built, that is MUCH better than 1 million people being able to buy a yacht and sail to the Bahamas for 6 months.

 

But yes, we need to 'vote with our pocketbooks' and say NO to WalMart, and stores like it. Support local businesses, including local farms and 'mom and pop' stores.

  • October 21 2008
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Maine is an island?

 

Rachel,

 

Your a republican and you don't even know it.  Lower corporate taxes, Incent business to stay in the US.  YOu cannot stop the offshoring of jobs it's a reality that is demanded by the consumer.  We need to encourage start up companies to take chances and be creative.

  • October 21 2008
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Profile picture for BMFPitt

Your a republican and you don't even know it.

 

Supporting protectionism while claiming to be for the market?  Sounds like one to me...

  • October 21 2008
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Is there much of a difference between dems & reps these days? Neither one appreciates our constitutionally mandated freedoms...and they both have an overly-healthy sense of entitlement.

 

We have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Not the right to make a profit every time we buy a house. Not the right to have our happiness come at the expense of others. But we are a lazy bunch that drastically underestimates our influence in the market place. If a high enough percentage of buyers demands anything, the market usually makes it happen. We demanded the right to buy a house regardless of qualifications. We demanded to make a profit of our real estate "investments" (not "guarantees", "investments"). The problem is we haven't as a society considered the long term consequences. There are consequences to these demands. If we cannot bite the bullet and get our head out of the short term sand trap we are going to have way, way bigger problems.

 

  • October 21 2008
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Profile picture for BMFPitt

Democrats think America is a kleptocracy full of uneducated xenophobic religious whackjobs that bomb people just to make themselves look tough and get cheap oil. Republicans want it to be.

Other than that they're pretty much the same. Both parties want nothing more than to put our grandchildren into more debt in order to give themselves 4 years of power over who that money gets handed out to.

  • October 21 2008
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Profile picture for mikefarinha

Rachel,

 

You position is understandable. You want America to be prosperous.

 

However you have the class warfare mentality that some people shouldn't be as prosperous as others and that some people should have the right to a decent paying job.

 

The solution to your question is that government should remove as many barriers to job creation. The most influential factor that the government has control of are taxes. It is simple, the more taxes levied against businesses the less resources the business has to enhance itself. More taxes equal less raises, less expansion, fewer holiday parties, less R&D, less tuition reimbursment, fewer employees, more work for current employees.

 

If you want to see the result of what Liberals constitute good employment you simply need to look at government workers. Of which I am one. Not much is expected of the workers and not much is done to fight off the pervasive ineptness and lack of passion in peoples jobs. Truely not much can be done. People that try to push productivity are considered rable rousers and quickly put into their place. It is a harmonious blandness.

 

The other night I was watching the Disney version of Robbin Hood. One of the dog characters was a business owner, I think a smith. He had a broken leg and therefore couldn't produce enough to make enough money to pay his taxes. The sheriff of Nottingham, looking for tax money, came in and took what money the smith had. Later in the show he had to close his business. I sarcasticlly made a remark to my wife "What? taxes can cause people to go out of business?!?!"

 

It isn't a hard concept to understand however the feel good notion of 'spread the wealth' has seem to taken this nation by storm. Quite frightening. If Obama does get his way we will see a short-term relief for the 95% that Obama wants to pay off but the repercutions will come like the four horsemen and will stay with us for much longer than Obama will be president.

 

Heck, look at the big elephant in the room, social security. It is about 10 years out but the collapse of social security will dwarf our current fiscal calamity. This was the 'innovation' that sprang up from the Great Depression, I can't wait to see what other innovations we get to put our future into debt for!

 

Back to your original point. Humanity, however, shouldn't be factored out of the equation. Tariffs are one way to prevent importing of goods from companies that take advantage of the poor in other countries. But in the end does that really help or hurt those contries? These aren't easy questions.

  • October 21 2008
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Profile picture for aapostrophe

"Too many people rely on these jobs and we just keep taking them away to increase the size of the CEOs purse. What are the benefits to the US for outsourcing everything?"

 

there are plenty of benefits for the US, if stockholders are included as being a part of the US:  lower admin costs, cheap wages, tiny tax bite, etc.  add up to higher stock price. 

 

the only time anyone is "worried" about creating or keeping jobs here is at election time, or for a PR spread.

  • October 21 2008
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I can't wait for my next socialist check to be mailed!

 

And I don't understand your position on Nafta as being a rep thing that shipped jobs overseas.

  • October 21 2008
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Rachel:

 

What is your master's in?

  • October 21 2008
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