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Replies (11)
- John Stewart, "nwhome.us"
- Contributions:2166
I think that you will find the requirement in the UBC.
Any layer if waterproofing that you see, whether it is roofing or siding is not the layer that keeps moisture out. The layer of material under it is the moisture proof layer.
The top layer is for aesthetics, sun block and minor abrasive protection.
Any layer if waterproofing that you see, whether it is roofing or siding is not the layer that keeps moisture out. The layer of material under it is the moisture proof layer.
The top layer is for aesthetics, sun block and minor abrasive protection.
- hpvanc
- Contributions:2579
It seems like a reasonable thing to me, along the same lines a refusing to issue new policies on houses with knob and tube wiring. Why take the risk of paying a big water damage claim for lack of a cheap layer of tar paper in a region noted for its thunderstorms.
I've never lived in St Louis, but I have seen lots of new subdivision go up in Illinois and Texas where asphalt composite shingles were applied directly to the sheathing without a secondary barrier. St Louis is definitely not a dry or windless climate, but I'm assuming they allow the same stupidity, why anyone would want to risk it is beyond me.
I never saw any built without in Colorado or Wyoming where the midwest gales seem like gentle breezes in comparison. I also have not noticed any houses being built without here in the Pacific Northwest, where we have a much lesser wind problem than either place.
I've never lived in St Louis, but I have seen lots of new subdivision go up in Illinois and Texas where asphalt composite shingles were applied directly to the sheathing without a secondary barrier. St Louis is definitely not a dry or windless climate, but I'm assuming they allow the same stupidity, why anyone would want to risk it is beyond me.
I never saw any built without in Colorado or Wyoming where the midwest gales seem like gentle breezes in comparison. I also have not noticed any houses being built without here in the Pacific Northwest, where we have a much lesser wind problem than either place.
- Serenas Real Estate
- Contributions:113
As far as I'm aware, it is a building code requirement in most areas. Contact your local roofing company for a free estimate to install this.
- Pasadenan
- Contributions:21466
The only case you will not find tar paper under the shingles is if the original roof was wood shake or shingle on nailing strips that had a gap of about 3" or 4" between them, and where the "re-roofing" was an additional roof layer (asphalt, composition, or fiberglass) shingles on top of the existing roof without stripping down.
This no longer meets current code, but you were allowed to have up to 3 roofs before a "strip down" was required. That has now been changed to a maximum of 2 roofs before stripping down. And now plywood or other roofing sheathing is required (not just the nailing strips), and the felt, and then the finish roofing material.
You should be able to get insurance if the roof met code when it was installed, and is still in good condition. But eventually you will have to replace the roof. Some insurance companies may charge you extra premium for older installation methods, or have exclusions for certain types of damage claims. Some may just try to get you to do the replacement work earlier.
If you don't need the new roof now, just make sure you budget the replacement for when you plan to do it correctly.
With the wood shake or shingle, you didn't need felt underneath it as the wood would swell when wet, closing off all potential gaps.
And the top surface of the roofing is not just "aesthetics", it is designed to allow the water to run off the surface without damage to the surface. Thus the staggering of the pattern is important to prevent water groves, and a rock finish or similar is important for durability and to spread the water flow.
It is possible that Spanish tile roofs at one point may also have not needed a felt underlayment, but it is required now, as well as the plywood or other "roof sheathing".
This no longer meets current code, but you were allowed to have up to 3 roofs before a "strip down" was required. That has now been changed to a maximum of 2 roofs before stripping down. And now plywood or other roofing sheathing is required (not just the nailing strips), and the felt, and then the finish roofing material.
You should be able to get insurance if the roof met code when it was installed, and is still in good condition. But eventually you will have to replace the roof. Some insurance companies may charge you extra premium for older installation methods, or have exclusions for certain types of damage claims. Some may just try to get you to do the replacement work earlier.
If you don't need the new roof now, just make sure you budget the replacement for when you plan to do it correctly.
With the wood shake or shingle, you didn't need felt underneath it as the wood would swell when wet, closing off all potential gaps.
And the top surface of the roofing is not just "aesthetics", it is designed to allow the water to run off the surface without damage to the surface. Thus the staggering of the pattern is important to prevent water groves, and a rock finish or similar is important for durability and to spread the water flow.
It is possible that Spanish tile roofs at one point may also have not needed a felt underlayment, but it is required now, as well as the plywood or other "roof sheathing".
- Pasadenan
- Contributions:21466
By the way, if "new construction" doesn't have a felt underlayment on top of the roof sheathing, then the building inspector looked the other way when it was installed, and the builder is hoping you never notice that the corner was cut.
It will still hold water and likely not leak for a reasonable period of time; but that would shorten the life of a 20 year roof down to about 10 to 12 years.
That is part of the reason you hire a home inspector to inspect these kinds of conditions and tell you the life expectancy of the roof before closing escrow on any home you make an offer on.
It will still hold water and likely not leak for a reasonable period of time; but that would shorten the life of a 20 year roof down to about 10 to 12 years.
That is part of the reason you hire a home inspector to inspect these kinds of conditions and tell you the life expectancy of the roof before closing escrow on any home you make an offer on.
- James Callas, "ABBAUSA"
- Contributions:960
It is an absolute requirement in Texas and especially along the gulf coast and the immediate areas inland.
The roof felt (traditional organic felt or the newer synthetic felt) must be nailed and inspected by a representative of wind storm department. You can hire an approved windstorm engineer to inspect and qualify your roof, but you pay them direct. The local windstorm will inspect for free you just have to time the inspection and the completed work.
If all is to code and windstorm approved your property will be issued a
WP-8 certificate which most insurance companies require in our area.
They have found that a properly applied well nailed felt application will save a house from severe rain damage or at least minimize it.
Also, from personal experience and observation from the last two hurricanes. Never recover roof shingles over roof shingle or roof shingles over anything but a solid sheathed deck. The high winds blows the stuff right off. We nail 6 roof nails into each shingle to confirm to the windstorm code. One on each end and two side by side on about 12" in from both ends.
Also there is a new roof deck product that is nailed to the rafters and all the joints are sealed like on Sheetrock, but with a waterproof tape. This will shed water without any roof shingles or any felt for quite sometime......more than enough for the hurricane to blow on through and out.
Always use felt, it is worth the slight extra expense.
Good Luck!
James Callas - Realtor©
The roof felt (traditional organic felt or the newer synthetic felt) must be nailed and inspected by a representative of wind storm department. You can hire an approved windstorm engineer to inspect and qualify your roof, but you pay them direct. The local windstorm will inspect for free you just have to time the inspection and the completed work.
If all is to code and windstorm approved your property will be issued a
WP-8 certificate which most insurance companies require in our area.
They have found that a properly applied well nailed felt application will save a house from severe rain damage or at least minimize it.
Also, from personal experience and observation from the last two hurricanes. Never recover roof shingles over roof shingle or roof shingles over anything but a solid sheathed deck. The high winds blows the stuff right off. We nail 6 roof nails into each shingle to confirm to the windstorm code. One on each end and two side by side on about 12" in from both ends.
Also there is a new roof deck product that is nailed to the rafters and all the joints are sealed like on Sheetrock, but with a waterproof tape. This will shed water without any roof shingles or any felt for quite sometime......more than enough for the hurricane to blow on through and out.
Always use felt, it is worth the slight extra expense.
Good Luck!
James Callas - Realtor©
- Pasadenan
- Contributions:21466
I had some roofing blow off several times during 120 MPH wind gusts too; but that was because the material was not installed properly, and the nails were not placed where they would grip anything.
It was nothing that couldn't be correct with a little Henry's wet-patch, and more careful nailing. I haven't had a similar problem for at least a decade in spite of occasional very heavy winds.
Still, hurricanes can be a lot worse than just a very heavy wind, as evidenced by all those houses that were completely washed out to sea.
It doesn't do any good to have a roof that will hold up to a hurricane if the attachment to the foundation will just give way.
It was nothing that couldn't be correct with a little Henry's wet-patch, and more careful nailing. I haven't had a similar problem for at least a decade in spite of occasional very heavy winds.
Still, hurricanes can be a lot worse than just a very heavy wind, as evidenced by all those houses that were completely washed out to sea.
It doesn't do any good to have a roof that will hold up to a hurricane if the attachment to the foundation will just give way.
- hpvanc
- Contributions:2579
"It is an absolute requirement in Texas and especially along the gulf coast and the immediate areas inland."
I would hope that it is in that part of Texas, but I would check if it were Dallas, I know they were building houses without 10 years ago. It should be required anywhere that has a risk of wind or rain.
I would hope that it is in that part of Texas, but I would check if it were Dallas, I know they were building houses without 10 years ago. It should be required anywhere that has a risk of wind or rain.
- Pasadenan
- Contributions:21466
I believe the Dallas area of Texas adapted the UBC, as most of the western states did; and the felt underlayment requirement has been in the UBC (Uniform Building Code) for at least 20 years. I don't read any "exceptions". Not to mention, the "instructions" that come with the roofing material require you to use the felt if you want the manufacturer to honor the warranty.
But the UBC is not the only "model code" used in the United States. There are about 4 different model codes, with different regions of the U.S. adopting different ones. Of course all states and local jurisdictions add their own requirements to the adopted code to tailor it to regional and local issues. But typically the State or local codes are more stringent than the model codes; not the other way around. And every 3 years, you can expect them to tweak something.
It is plain foolishness to install a new roof on new sheathing without a felt underlayment. Only a contractor looking for a fast buck and to ignore future problems with the structure would consider such a thing. (Well, maybe someone might also do that for a temporary shed that will not be in use for more than 1 year too).
But the other implied question that wasn't asked was 15 lb or 30 lb felt? I would use the 30 lb even if not required.
But the UBC is not the only "model code" used in the United States. There are about 4 different model codes, with different regions of the U.S. adopting different ones. Of course all states and local jurisdictions add their own requirements to the adopted code to tailor it to regional and local issues. But typically the State or local codes are more stringent than the model codes; not the other way around. And every 3 years, you can expect them to tweak something.
It is plain foolishness to install a new roof on new sheathing without a felt underlayment. Only a contractor looking for a fast buck and to ignore future problems with the structure would consider such a thing. (Well, maybe someone might also do that for a temporary shed that will not be in use for more than 1 year too).
But the other implied question that wasn't asked was 15 lb or 30 lb felt? I would use the 30 lb even if not required.
- Shannon Ware, "ShannonWare"
- Contributions:243
If you have a an asphalt shingle (conventional) roof with the shingles directly on the wood roof decking, you have a roof that was just done wrong. There are various advanced underlayments available now, they are not always "tar paper" anymore. Some provide automatic sealing around roofing nails. There should also be metal flashing around any roof penetrations, along chimneys, in any valleys where roof profiles intersect, and "drip edge" flashing along the edge of the roofing.
You may have a very substandard "fly by night" roof job, you should get a quality roofer or home inspector out to look at it.
You may have a very substandard "fly by night" roof job, you should get a quality roofer or home inspector out to look at it.
- Pasadenan
- Contributions:21466
Since the original poster is a licensed home inspector, I'm sure he was just baiting us... Of course he must know the answer!
Of course you can get insurance if it met code when installed and if it is still in good condition. But if it is in substantial need of repair, many insurance companies will send a notice of cancel if the issue is not addressed. And of course you will need a building permit, thus it is unlikely that you will get away without complying with code, even if you wanted to.
I'm really curious if anyone actually has any "evidence" (photos...) of new construction without the felt underlayment.
Of course you can get insurance if it met code when installed and if it is still in good condition. But if it is in substantial need of repair, many insurance companies will send a notice of cancel if the issue is not addressed. And of course you will need a building permit, thus it is unlikely that you will get away without complying with code, even if you wanted to.
I'm really curious if anyone actually has any "evidence" (photos...) of new construction without the felt underlayment.
Tar paper under roof shingles.
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