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This thread is currently closed for responses.Best Answer
- Russ Hatfield, "RussHatfield"
- Contributions:336
Whew. Multiple flags from multiple community members to shut this one down. I'm locking it for now, reserving the right to clean as we see fit, per the Good Neighbor Policy.
Thanks!
Russ
Zillow Customer Care
Thanks!
Russ
Zillow Customer Care
- Joan Braunschweiger, "Morris County NJ"
- Contributions:1543
Honesty Vivianne, although you were the catalyst, at this point you are simply a distraction to what could be an important dialogue about issues that agents face all the time.
So often REAs are faced with a lot of gray area where we have to wonder if our own prejudices/biases/assumptions color what we show various buyers. However, we are also faced with buyers who make their preferences known, not necessarily in a hateful type of way but just making clear their comfort zones.
For example, lets say I start taking out some new buyers. After showing them several homes in several different neighborhoods it becomes clear that they are looking for neighborhoods which are dominated by their race/nationality/age/straights/gays......whatever. They aren't necessarily obnoxious or blatant about it but yet it becomes quite clear that they would be more comfortable among certain types of people, whatever it may be. Although I'm not supposed to "steer" people to neighborhoods based on things such as race, if buyers aren't familiar with what neighborhoods fit their criteria and I am, am I wrong to take them to neighborhoods which fit that criteria?
Its not really me that is choosing the neighborhoods, its being done with the buyers consent. I'm pretty sure this would be a professional no no because I am using a neighborhood's population as a determining factor for showing buyers a particular area. Yes, I can direct my buyers to various resources which may tell them what they want to know about various areas and this is undoubtedly what agents should do to avoid all appearances of bad behavior but I would imagine it would be awfully easy to just bring them to the places where I know they would feel comfortable.
I am certainly not advocating Vivianne's...uh.......interesting perspective on things, yet we all must have some realization that the line is not always so easy to recognize.
So often REAs are faced with a lot of gray area where we have to wonder if our own prejudices/biases/assumptions color what we show various buyers. However, we are also faced with buyers who make their preferences known, not necessarily in a hateful type of way but just making clear their comfort zones.
For example, lets say I start taking out some new buyers. After showing them several homes in several different neighborhoods it becomes clear that they are looking for neighborhoods which are dominated by their race/nationality/age/straights/gays......whatever. They aren't necessarily obnoxious or blatant about it but yet it becomes quite clear that they would be more comfortable among certain types of people, whatever it may be. Although I'm not supposed to "steer" people to neighborhoods based on things such as race, if buyers aren't familiar with what neighborhoods fit their criteria and I am, am I wrong to take them to neighborhoods which fit that criteria?
Its not really me that is choosing the neighborhoods, its being done with the buyers consent. I'm pretty sure this would be a professional no no because I am using a neighborhood's population as a determining factor for showing buyers a particular area. Yes, I can direct my buyers to various resources which may tell them what they want to know about various areas and this is undoubtedly what agents should do to avoid all appearances of bad behavior but I would imagine it would be awfully easy to just bring them to the places where I know they would feel comfortable.
I am certainly not advocating Vivianne's...uh.......interesting perspective on things, yet we all must have some realization that the line is not always so easy to recognize.
- BlackKnight7
- Contributions:7
(removed by moderator)
- Caveat Emptor
- Contributions:500
You know what else is "learned?" That its okay to hate someone, for any reason. That's learned too.
- VirginiaBeach
- Contributions:5
[inappropriate. Deleted by Zillow moderator]
- Lib Anthropologist
- Contributions:19
(removed by moderator)
- wetdawgs
- Contributions:26853
@David: Thank you for stopping by and offering the clarifications. Please do let us know when you've put up the blog post.
- hpvanc
- Contributions:2579
How much longer until this train wreck burns itself out? The wreckage has been blazing at the bottom of the ravine for hours. We need marshmallows not popcorn.
- David_Danaan
- Contributions:1
Hi all, this is David Weintraub, moderater of the Equalityloudoun.org blog that the author of this thread linked to. I haven't read all of the comments here, but I do want to correct some misinformation posted by Ms. Rutkowski.
Liberal Anthropologist is one of the bloggers for Tooconservative.com, and a commenter on our blog. Other than commenting on each other's blogs we haven't met, but I have no reason to think he's anyone other than who he appears to be, a conservative libertarian thinker.
Loudoun Out Loud, which Vivianne keeps referring to, is another organization that provides support to students and their families, independent of Equality Loudoun. She has been confusing those two organizations with each other and with another blog, Loudounprogress.org.
I plan to put up the complete archived blog post that people can't access anymore, I'll post a note when it's up if you want.
Cheers, David
Liberal Anthropologist is one of the bloggers for Tooconservative.com, and a commenter on our blog. Other than commenting on each other's blogs we haven't met, but I have no reason to think he's anyone other than who he appears to be, a conservative libertarian thinker.
Loudoun Out Loud, which Vivianne keeps referring to, is another organization that provides support to students and their families, independent of Equality Loudoun. She has been confusing those two organizations with each other and with another blog, Loudounprogress.org.
I plan to put up the complete archived blog post that people can't access anymore, I'll post a note when it's up if you want.
Cheers, David
- BlackKnight7
- Contributions:7
(removed by moderator)
- Caveat Emptor
- Contributions:500
My guess is that the mod on duty stopped reading your posts after "god hates crooks," just a guess mind you. I don't really know why you even care that that gets re-posted for the 3rd or 4th time.
So hes conservative AND thinks bigoted slurs are wrong. Big deal.
I would prefer it if you made a point rather than just posting random quotes with no context.
So hes conservative AND thinks bigoted slurs are wrong. Big deal.
I would prefer it if you made a point rather than just posting random quotes with no context.
- BlackKnight7
- Contributions:7
(removed by moderator)
- VirginiaBeach
- Contributions:5
[deleted by Zillow moderator.Please see our Good Neighbor Policy.].
- Todeti
- Contributions:1
I ran out of popcorn. Can someone pass me theirs?
- BlackKnight7
- Contributions:7
[deleted by Zillow moderator.Please see our Good Neighbor Policy.].
- BlackKnight7
- Contributions:7
I posted a comment and I dont see it - I saw it one hour ago.
Just wanted to say that Lib is a [deleted by Zillow moderator.Please see our Good Neighbor Policy]. Here is what he posted for his cronies on another blog:
David,
If you don't mind, would you please go to
http://www.zillow.com/advice-thread/Was-it-ethical-Vivianne-Rutowski-REALTOR-Fired/430914/
and clarify that I am not associated with your site and that we have never met outside of this blogosphere (as far as you know!). Seriously. We have never met. If I did, I would let you know it was me.
You may also want to clarify the Loudoun Out Loud point.
- Caveat Emptor
- Contributions:500
It seems she (and all REA) have ethical obligations/duties. So going back to my core question. Did she violate her ethical obligations.
To be honest, I don't know. I don't think that blogging would do it, but I'm not an REA. the stuff she said about "informing" her clients about "material facts" like the neighbors being lovers and not room-mates comes darn close. whether or not she violated the Realtor Code of Ethics, is really of very little concern to me as the NAR doesn't really enforce the thing. I don't think she violated any laws either, but I'm not a lawyer, nor a professional in the field.
fortunately, that also means that I can say what I think and not worry about losing my job. its the privilege of anonymity and not holding the previously mentioned licenses
To be honest, I don't know. I don't think that blogging would do it, but I'm not an REA. the stuff she said about "informing" her clients about "material facts" like the neighbors being lovers and not room-mates comes darn close. whether or not she violated the Realtor Code of Ethics, is really of very little concern to me as the NAR doesn't really enforce the thing. I don't think she violated any laws either, but I'm not a lawyer, nor a professional in the field.
fortunately, that also means that I can say what I think and not worry about losing my job. its the privilege of anonymity and not holding the previously mentioned licenses
- Hamp Yonce, "Zilluminati"
- Contributions:3463
About 35 of the "views" were mine. There's something wrong with the explanation of a REA's fiduciary duty to their clients. I don't think it is fictional. Mythical, maybe? Fictional, I disagree. It is no more fictional than the Fair Housing Act.
- blub blub blub
- Contributions:145
fiduciary 1) n. from the Latin fiducia, meaning "trust," a person (or a business like a bank or stock brokerage) who has the power and obligation to act for another (often called the beneficiary) under circumstances which require total trust, good faith and honesty. The most common is a trustee of a trust, but fiduciaries can include business advisers, attorneys, guardians, administrators of estates, real estate agents, bankers, stock brokers, title companies, or anyone who undertakes to assist someone who places complete confidence and trust in that person or company. Characteristically, the fiduciary has greater knowledge and expertise about the matters being handled. A fiduciary is held to a standard of conduct and trust above that of a stranger or of a casual business person. He/she/it must avoid "self-dealing" or "conflicts of interests" in which the potential benefit to the fiduciary is in conflict with what is best for the person who trusts him/her/it. For example, a stockbroker must consider the best investment for the client, and not buy or sell on the basis of what brings him/her the highest commission. While a fiduciary and the beneficiary may join together in a business venture or a purchase of property, the best interest of the beneficiary must be primary, and absolute candor is required of the fiduciary. 2) adj. defining a situation or relationship in which a person is acting as a fiduciary for another.
- Lib Anthropologist
- Contributions:19
Caveat,
Thanks for the detail. So Vivianne is incorrect when she talks of her fiduciary duties.
It seems she (and all REA) have ethical obligations/duties. So going back to my core question. Did she violate her ethical obligations.
Thanks for the detail. So Vivianne is incorrect when she talks of her fiduciary duties.
It seems she (and all REA) have ethical obligations/duties. So going back to my core question. Did she violate her ethical obligations.
- Caveat Emptor
- Contributions:500
There are no fiduciary duties of any REA to any person that he represents. a Fiduciary is a person who represents you in financial matters and is under an obligation to guard his client up to a very high standard. (some REAs are attorneys or hold other certs that can come with a fiduciary duty)
Fiduciaries can't act when they have a conflict of interest, and have to be bonded for the protection of their clients.
REAs all have conflicts of interest because they are being paid to sell me something. If I look at 10 homes and decide to wait out the market, that is a huge loss for an REA. they have every incentive to attempt to sell me even harder. in multiple offer situations, they push for you to bid more when your best option is to walk away.
Fiduciaries also have a personal obligation to their client, failing in your fiduciary duty, you can be sued. REAs have no such duty. as long as they don't give financial advice outside of their scope of practice or act on my behalf without my consent, they can't be sued for offering, say 15% more than a home is worth to "make sure" that you get it (or even encouraging it) when offering far less would most likely be sufficient. a fiduciary on the other hand would have to be able to justify the offer or strongly advise against it(and perhaps even block it).
(removed by moderator)
Fiduciaries can't act when they have a conflict of interest, and have to be bonded for the protection of their clients.
REAs all have conflicts of interest because they are being paid to sell me something. If I look at 10 homes and decide to wait out the market, that is a huge loss for an REA. they have every incentive to attempt to sell me even harder. in multiple offer situations, they push for you to bid more when your best option is to walk away.
Fiduciaries also have a personal obligation to their client, failing in your fiduciary duty, you can be sued. REAs have no such duty. as long as they don't give financial advice outside of their scope of practice or act on my behalf without my consent, they can't be sued for offering, say 15% more than a home is worth to "make sure" that you get it (or even encouraging it) when offering far less would most likely be sufficient. a fiduciary on the other hand would have to be able to justify the offer or strongly advise against it(and perhaps even block it).
(removed by moderator)
- VirginiaBeach
- Contributions:5
(removed by moderator)
- Lib Anthropologist
- Contributions:19
(removed by moderator)
- Michael Emery, "MikeEmery"
- Contributions:7298
...and only 540 measly views
Yeah.
True.
One a minute for the last 9 hours.
'measly'
LOL!
Yeah.
True.
One a minute for the last 9 hours.
'measly'
LOL!
- VirginiaBeach
- Contributions:5
By the way, did you notice very few people posted anything here and only 540 measly views. (removed by moderator). Nobody is reading it anyway.
- Lib Anthropologist
- Contributions:19
You know what... Someone pointed out there were some interesting questions. I would like to bring one of those up again if anyone could tell me.
What are the fiduciary duties of an agent to a buyer? Vivianne made a point of that. Which things are you required to do fiduciarily. I would assume keeping your client's money separate is one. What else? I honestly have no idea.
What are the fiduciary duties of an agent to a buyer? Vivianne made a point of that. Which things are you required to do fiduciarily. I would assume keeping your client's money separate is one. What else? I honestly have no idea.
- Lib Anthropologist
- Contributions:19
(removed by moderator)
- Lib Anthropologist
- Contributions:19
(removed by moderator)
- VirginiaBeach
- Contributions:5
(removed by moderator)
- Lib Anthropologist
- Contributions:19
I have no idea why, but the Zillow moderator deleted parts of mine and Vivianne's posts. All I recall saying in that section was that my grandfather could not have been around at the time of slaves. If someone has some idea what rule I may have broken unintentionally, it would be nice to know. Maybe there was a keyword in Black Knight's text that got picked up and it deletes everything around that automatically. (removed by moderator)
Was it ethical? Vivianne Rutowski - REALTOR - Fired
Details here:
http://www.equalityloudoun.org/2012/01/31/anti-gay-anti-trans-realtor-terminated-from-keller-williams/
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