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Why are "base rates" not identified when "discount points" are quoted?

Profile picture for socal_engr
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Since November 2009

In looking at several quotes, there is a sliding scale of "discount points" associated with rates. However, there is no mention of what the "base rate" was - which would be really helpful in deciding if the discount points were worth paying.

Rather than give me X-number of quotes with different discount points, why not just quote the base rate and then identify costs to buy down the rate?
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August 11 - San Diego
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Profile picture for Planners
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I don't think there is any such thing as a "base rate" in any meaningful sense. For any given loan product, I get a menu of about 15 rate/point combinations each day, of which two or three represent the "sweet spot" of more or less equivalent best values. However, the sweet spot moves around each day, so sometimes my best deals are at lower points or even cost rebates, while other times it makes sense to pay higher points to get a significantly lower rate. Furthermore, the sweet spot is almost always different between programs.

Hope this helps. 
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August 11
Profile picture for BestAPR
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Wow! What a great idea.
That is the problem this industry is trying to overcome. Transparency is the key. For some reason people believe they need to hide the amount that they earn per loan. There is nothing wrong with making money, just be open about it.
If you are not told how much you are paying, you are paying too much!
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August 11
Profile picture for SunTrust
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Base rates, at least to a bank, are the current MBS pricing at different coupons (4.5, 5, 5.5, etc). Most of us, probably all, get a rate sheet that will have 10,15, maybe 20 different 30 year fixed rates. Some people are trying to glob up the quotes by quoting the whole gamut, others just give a sampling, maybe one or two that are available.
 
To me, base rate means before any applicable LLPAs. (Loan Level Price Adjustments) which are based on score, purpose and LTV.

For example, Today let's say a purchase of $850,000, SFR, in Washington DC, 740 score, 30 day lock, 20% down (loan amount $680,000), all the below base rates and points are available:

4.75% 2.125 points
4.875% 1.5 points
5% 1 points
5.125% 0.5 points
5.25% 0 points
5.375% (- 0.625 points)
5.5% (-1.000 points)

the range actually runs from a low of 4.375%/4.25 points to a high of 6.5%  / (-3.375 points)

Those are the base rates. In the above 740 score scenario there are no LLPAs, so you would get to pick any base rate. However, if the credit score was 725, you could still pick any base rate however you would have to add 0.25 points (LLPA for credit score) to any of the points, for example it would then mean 5.25% would be 0.25 points instead of 0 points.

 
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August 11
Profile picture for CA UMB
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Since January 2009

Receiving quotes through a medium as Zillow one cannot expect perfection. For those that wish specifics it's best to speak to a mortgage professional directly.

Most UMBs and Non-UMBs will usually explain this concern of yours by going over a rate sheet with you. There you will see a range of rates that either have a rebate or a cost. From that information you can determine if it's worth it for you to pay discount points. It's not very complicated. ... Happy funding, Rudi
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August 11
Profile picture for socal_engr
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Since November 2009

Clay,

You're right. If I go to the AimLoan site, they actually provide a table of rates/points and what I am assuming to be the "par" rate (at least, it has 0 discount points).

I imagine it's not too hard to identify the "better loan" between 5.25 @ 0pts and 5.125 @ 1pt. It's just that it seems like it should be fairly easy to say 5.125 @ 1pt w/ par @ 5.375 - that gives the consumer more info about the actual loan product (i.e., that it should be available at 5.375 and 0pts if 1pt is excessive) that makes it easier to compare.

Then again, I may be tilting at windmills.
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August 11
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insert word - way,   as in only way
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August 11
Profile picture for Georgia Loans
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Since January 2009

socal, I believe the only to acheive want you want is to get multiple quotes, including one at par which would be the starting rate.   
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August 11
Profile picture for socal_engr
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Went back and looked at quotes. AimLoan posted 4 quotes, each with the same guaranteed lender fees and guaranteed appraisal fee, but no mention of any other costs.

Went to AimLoan site, and they have the "Upfront Mortgage Lender" logo splased across the bottom. And...they also then disclosed the associated discount points - but only on their website and nowhere in their quote.

Didn't bother checking the rest, but guess it really doesn't matter. Since AimLoan has the logo, I'd expect their quote to have all costs identified "up front" - but they didn't disclose discount points and other lenders did. Either way, my original question still goes unanswered.
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August 11
Profile picture for BrokerPro
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You ask: "Are you saying that UFMB's will include the base rate in their quotes, along with the discounted rates and associated points?"

Yes, that's exactly what they do.  Zillow may not have the appropriate boxes for it so the information may be in the narrative or in a follow up.

I don't know about your Zillow quotes.  Maybe no Upfront broker posted a quote.
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August 11
Profile picture for socal_engr
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I've done quite a bit of reading on the MtgProf's website, and gotten some decent info that has helped me out. The website you pointed me to was just an ad.

More to the point...

Are you saying that UFMB's will include the base rate in their quotes, along with the discounted rates and associated points? I have not seen a single quote on Zillow that provides this type of information.
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August 11
Profile picture for CA UMB
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You are correct. If the truth be known, many of those "Discount Points" you see are origination points in disguise that will resurface elsewhere in their disclosures farther into the loan process. ... New regulations will put a stop to this. ..... Happy computing, Rudi
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August 11
Profile picture for socal_engr
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Planners,

You missed my question. In most quotes, it simply states a rate and the applicable discount points. The starting rate is not identified. I'll accept your info about .125 in rate should cost about .5 in cost.

But...how do I know from the quote that I am paying that ratio?
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August 11
Profile picture for Planners
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A pretty good general rule is that if you keep a 30-year term loan for between 4 to 5 years, 1/2 point is worth 1/8 percent of rate. If it costs you more than a half point to buy the rate down, it's probably not worth it, if it's less, it probably is as long as you are sure you are going to be there at least 4 years.

If you are the kind of person that likes to run your own numbers, be sure to use the monthly interest cost and not the monthly payment. Loans amortize at different rates depending on the interest rate, and the difference, although small, is enough to throw off your results. 

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August 11
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"If you want that information, go to the website of the Upfront Mortgage Brokers Association"

OOOOPS Michael ... I think you made a mistake answering Socal's question that way! I'm getting the popcorn out for this!
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August 11
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If you want that information, go to the website of the Upfront Mortgage Brokers Association
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August 11
 

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