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Answers (20)
- Vince Curtis, "SoCal Appraiser"
- Contributions:4701
I see this a lot in So Cal, especially in Beverly Hills. Many times the Realtor wont even list the GLA, especially if it is relatively low.
Here is the routine - When a buyer goes to buy a home, an appraisal is done by the lender, and the appraiser must measure the home and be within 100ft of the county records. Since the appraiser does not have any agency with the buyer, the measured GLA may vary from the public records, and it is only a concern to the lender, not the borrower per se.The borrower, though, does acknowledge they have 'reviewed' the appraisal at some point (usually the end of escrow) but they rarely do. An usually at this point the agent(s) dont want to 'kill' the deal and bring up any sq ft difference to the buyer.
If there is a big difference, I 'USED TO' advise the loan agent on the difference, and strongly suggest they advise their client, the buyer they are buying a home where the MLS is overstating the size. But thanks to new HVCC laws, we CANT do that anymore.
So, yes, bottomline, its ' buyer beware'...
Here is the routine - When a buyer goes to buy a home, an appraisal is done by the lender, and the appraiser must measure the home and be within 100ft of the county records. Since the appraiser does not have any agency with the buyer, the measured GLA may vary from the public records, and it is only a concern to the lender, not the borrower per se.The borrower, though, does acknowledge they have 'reviewed' the appraisal at some point (usually the end of escrow) but they rarely do. An usually at this point the agent(s) dont want to 'kill' the deal and bring up any sq ft difference to the buyer.
If there is a big difference, I 'USED TO' advise the loan agent on the difference, and strongly suggest they advise their client, the buyer they are buying a home where the MLS is overstating the size. But thanks to new HVCC laws, we CANT do that anymore.
So, yes, bottomline, its ' buyer beware'...
- Pasadenan
- Contributions:21466
"it's very rarely done because it ends up becoming a liability." -
That is the "real" issue: they don't know how to measure it to get the "legal" "livable space" according to the Uniform Building Code, or what ever code applies to the area. All kinds of factors confuse the agents, sellers, and buyers when it comes to "livable" space:
1) Measure from the OUTSIDE of the exterior walls for residential
2) Can't count closed in porches, sun-rooms or other "no-conditioned" space, such as garages and workshops.
3) Ceiling heights must be at least 7'6". Special rules for sloped ceilings requiring averaging.
4) Stairwells count twice even though no "floor".
5) Double height living rooms only count once.
6) Grandfathered in rooms with lower ceilings may count due to being grandfathered in.
7) Even though not directly heated, a room adjacent to the room with a floor or wall furnace may be considered "heated".
8) Floors completely below grade usually don't count, but could count of a percentage opens to grade, or it has windows and a percentage above grade, and if heated and has legal egress means and has at least minimum required ceiling heights.
9) Finished attics with only a ships-ladder or pull-down access, or temporary ladder access are not livable space, even if they have the required heating and the required ceiling height, and the required windows, and the required second exit.
10) Walls and chases take up lots of space, but since measured from the exterior of exterior walls, these walls count toward the space even though they contribute no "usable" floor space.
11) 2nd floors inset from the first floor are hard to measure from the exterior, so they usually have to be measured from the interior.
12) Closet space is usually counted, but if the closets don't have sufficient ceiling height, they may not count.
13) Not all bay windows go all the way to the floor, so it is often not clear if they are to count as additional floor space.
14) Round off error makes a huge difference. Some round to nearest foot; others to nearest 1/2 foot, others to nearest 1/4 foot, others to nearest inch, others to nearest 1/2 inch, others to nearest 1/4 inch, others to nearest 1/8". Very few round more accurately than 1/8", but obviously, the finer the measurement, the more accurate the results.
15) County records are usually considered the "official" dimensions and size, but some were never recorded properly in the first place. Other times, changes were made and never recorded. This can be a real liability issue for all involved if work was done without a permit. This also can be very confusing with garage conversions. In some cases, the garage conversions count toward living space, especially if conditioned, and especially if the covered parking was replaced elsewhere.
So, the only "real" solution is for the agent to provide a dimensioned floor plan, but less than 5% of the agents are qualified, skilled, and knowledgeable to do this. And they really don't think it is part of their job, and it would just eat into their profit margins.
For the "seller" they can "reject" any agent that won't produce and provide the floor plan. For the "buyer", there is no solution except to measure yourself and draw your own floor plan. In most cases, the measurements can be done in about 1/2 an hour; and the drawings can be completed in about 1.5 hours. If one wants counters, fixtures, windows, doors and outlets shown, it may take about 2 hours to measure and about 5 hours to draw. Those that haven't practiced may take much longer.
That is the "real" issue: they don't know how to measure it to get the "legal" "livable space" according to the Uniform Building Code, or what ever code applies to the area. All kinds of factors confuse the agents, sellers, and buyers when it comes to "livable" space:
1) Measure from the OUTSIDE of the exterior walls for residential
2) Can't count closed in porches, sun-rooms or other "no-conditioned" space, such as garages and workshops.
3) Ceiling heights must be at least 7'6". Special rules for sloped ceilings requiring averaging.
4) Stairwells count twice even though no "floor".
5) Double height living rooms only count once.
6) Grandfathered in rooms with lower ceilings may count due to being grandfathered in.
7) Even though not directly heated, a room adjacent to the room with a floor or wall furnace may be considered "heated".
8) Floors completely below grade usually don't count, but could count of a percentage opens to grade, or it has windows and a percentage above grade, and if heated and has legal egress means and has at least minimum required ceiling heights.
9) Finished attics with only a ships-ladder or pull-down access, or temporary ladder access are not livable space, even if they have the required heating and the required ceiling height, and the required windows, and the required second exit.
10) Walls and chases take up lots of space, but since measured from the exterior of exterior walls, these walls count toward the space even though they contribute no "usable" floor space.
11) 2nd floors inset from the first floor are hard to measure from the exterior, so they usually have to be measured from the interior.
12) Closet space is usually counted, but if the closets don't have sufficient ceiling height, they may not count.
13) Not all bay windows go all the way to the floor, so it is often not clear if they are to count as additional floor space.
14) Round off error makes a huge difference. Some round to nearest foot; others to nearest 1/2 foot, others to nearest 1/4 foot, others to nearest inch, others to nearest 1/2 inch, others to nearest 1/4 inch, others to nearest 1/8". Very few round more accurately than 1/8", but obviously, the finer the measurement, the more accurate the results.
15) County records are usually considered the "official" dimensions and size, but some were never recorded properly in the first place. Other times, changes were made and never recorded. This can be a real liability issue for all involved if work was done without a permit. This also can be very confusing with garage conversions. In some cases, the garage conversions count toward living space, especially if conditioned, and especially if the covered parking was replaced elsewhere.
So, the only "real" solution is for the agent to provide a dimensioned floor plan, but less than 5% of the agents are qualified, skilled, and knowledgeable to do this. And they really don't think it is part of their job, and it would just eat into their profit margins.
For the "seller" they can "reject" any agent that won't produce and provide the floor plan. For the "buyer", there is no solution except to measure yourself and draw your own floor plan. In most cases, the measurements can be done in about 1/2 an hour; and the drawings can be completed in about 1.5 hours. If one wants counters, fixtures, windows, doors and outlets shown, it may take about 2 hours to measure and about 5 hours to draw. Those that haven't practiced may take much longer.
- Joan Braunschweiger, "Morris County NJ"
- Contributions:1543
Our mls has a place to add square footage but most agents choose not to.
You can still get a good idea of house size by room number and room dimensions.
I have to tell you though that it is utterly maddening to me when agents don't even include that. The majority of agents in my area do include the room dimensions but I noticed that in certain towns not including the room dimensions was apparently an accepted practice.
How they get away with this I don't know.
You can still get a good idea of house size by room number and room dimensions.
I have to tell you though that it is utterly maddening to me when agents don't even include that. The majority of agents in my area do include the room dimensions but I noticed that in certain towns not including the room dimensions was apparently an accepted practice.
How they get away with this I don't know.
- Dan, "the_country_hick"
- Contributions:4700
Joan, if your MLS does not give square feet how do buyers find a house the size they want? I would far prefer to see houses listed as 24 x 40 instead of 960 sq ft..
- Joan Braunschweiger, "Morris County NJ"
- Contributions:1543
Although our mls has an option to include square footage, its very rarely done because it ends up becoming a liability.
The fact of the matter is there is no absolute standard to measure square footage so its safer to just give the dimensions of individual rooms.
The fact of the matter is there is no absolute standard to measure square footage so its safer to just give the dimensions of individual rooms.
- SteadyState
- Contributions:787
This is becoming more and more of a common complaint. I guess they can get away with it with little consequence or just desperate measures for desperate times.
- Jim Stevenson, "therealtorguy"
- Contributions:1111
We have a great mls service and fairly accurate accurate public records. Our mls listings have an area for square footage (above grade) and lower level square footage. Should an agent incorrectly (falsely) state the square footage, they can be reported to the mls service and possibly fined. I currently have a complaint in for such an issue and the mls is working on it. The square footage can be verified on public records. But incorrect square footage places a blemish on all realtors. Realtors that continue to place false information on the mls should be suspended from the mls .... maybe then they will become more honest and ethical.
- SoCal_Engr
- Contributions:5669
Because it could help them make the sale. Also, because they cover their financial a** with a discliamer built into the offer form and everything else that says they did not generate the sq/ft but just are using someone eles' number.
- Dana Voelzke, "danbury_realtor"
- Contributions:824
On occasion, a seller will debate the square footage of their home listed on the field card. I have seen people who legitimately finished above grade space that was not on the field card yet for whatever reason. Others want their home listed with the extra finished basement square footage to try to make it appear larger for pricing purposes.
Also there are mistakes such as a building was planned with a certain square footage but the final was slightly different and was never corrected. I know of a condo project where somehow the garage space was counted and voila all the field cards all say 1600 sqft when in reality they are no more than 1200.
It really does confuse the heck out of everybody, and in my experience it's driven by inconsistent data at the town level just as much as the other motives you mentioned. But then again the average age of a house in my area is about 45 years which predates zoning.
In our area, if the square footage listed is different than the square footage on the field card agents will call other agents on this practice very quickly.
Also there are mistakes such as a building was planned with a certain square footage but the final was slightly different and was never corrected. I know of a condo project where somehow the garage space was counted and voila all the field cards all say 1600 sqft when in reality they are no more than 1200.
It really does confuse the heck out of everybody, and in my experience it's driven by inconsistent data at the town level just as much as the other motives you mentioned. But then again the average age of a house in my area is about 45 years which predates zoning.
In our area, if the square footage listed is different than the square footage on the field card agents will call other agents on this practice very quickly.
- Christine Moran Realtor & Notary, "Christine Moran"
- Contributions:288
I agree with the other responses the only difference is the raised ranch. You can count basement square footage or not depending on who is financing it.
- Judy Sabag, "judysabag"
- Contributions:68
This is a very dangerous practice for a real estate agent. If a buyer was deceived they will most likely have cause for a lawsuit including financial reimbursement from the agent for the "missing" square footage.
- Brian Teyssier, "Brian Teyssier GRI"
- Contributions:964
Thanks for your question. In Pennsylvania, we are lucky as we do not go by square footage and do not even have a place to list it on our MLS.
You are right, buyers have to do their own due diligence. I know it is after the fact but appraisals will/should give an exact number.
I am sure this does not help much, sorry.
Good luck.
You are right, buyers have to do their own due diligence. I know it is after the fact but appraisals will/should give an exact number.
I am sure this does not help much, sorry.
Good luck.
- Judy Boyle, "JudyBoyleCDPE"
- Contributions:149
Hi Susiegreen2005,
There is no easy answer to this question.
My local MLS (which, like all other MLS's, syndicates to the many real estate websites out there today) DOES permit agents to include all finished living area in the GLA as long as they disclose this (in a separate area, mind you, which may not be captured in the syndication). This inconsistency definitely makes it difficult to "comp" out a house if you are using square footage as a determining factor for market value. This method is not recommended however because it is obviously too unpredictable.
It would make sense to me that the MLS's standardize their policies on reporting square footage. I don't think it is misrepresentation or violation of any ethics codes.
When in doubt, have a local market expert interpret the information for you.
Good luck!
There is no easy answer to this question.
My local MLS (which, like all other MLS's, syndicates to the many real estate websites out there today) DOES permit agents to include all finished living area in the GLA as long as they disclose this (in a separate area, mind you, which may not be captured in the syndication). This inconsistency definitely makes it difficult to "comp" out a house if you are using square footage as a determining factor for market value. This method is not recommended however because it is obviously too unpredictable.
It would make sense to me that the MLS's standardize their policies on reporting square footage. I don't think it is misrepresentation or violation of any ethics codes.
When in doubt, have a local market expert interpret the information for you.
Good luck!
- Dan, "the_country_hick"
- Contributions:4700
I saw where an agent posted excess square footage in a listing. The person who bought it found out after the sale it was wrong. They ended up having that agent pay them the difference for square missing. It could be a legal issue requiring the agents E&O insurance to pay up.
- Debra Culbreth, "DebraPowerCulbreth"
- Contributions:1
It seems that some agents choose not to measure in order to save time. They will accept the seller's information at face value and put in a disclaimer. I believe it is more about a sloppy job and laziness than about trying to defraud or enhance a listing in many cases. It is unfortunate as measuring takes little time and is a great way to learn more about your listing.
- Deb Forte, "debbieforte"
- Contributions:271
I personally list the basement separte as extra living space. That is only if it is finished.
- Tanya Starcevich
- Contributions:8
It is unfortunate that the square footage on a property is sometimes reported incorrectly. While some agents use this a leveraging tool to justify the asking price, they often disclose "buyer to verify square footage" in order to avoid a potential lawsuit.
I advise all of my clients to verify the square footage with the city. Your appraiser or inspector will verify this and save you the trip!
I advise all of my clients to verify the square footage with the city. Your appraiser or inspector will verify this and save you the trip!
- sunnyview
- Contributions:25139
I agree. In my area, agents often include unfinished basements or attic space in the total square footage. Not all do that, but some agents consistently do. When those houses sell, they are often used for comps when in fact the house has a very different square footage than the subject house.
I wish that the local associations would put an end to this practice. I think it is bad for buyers, bad for the professional reputation of good agents and bad for the larger market.
I wish that the local associations would put an end to this practice. I think it is bad for buyers, bad for the professional reputation of good agents and bad for the larger market.
- Heidi Zizza, "Heidi Zizza REALTOR"
- Contributions:724
You are correct. I have a problem with that as well. It is also difficult to use those homes as a comparison when that problem arises. Basements or attics can be used if they are finished as long as it is properly noted
- wetdawgs
- Contributions:26854
You are right. This sounds like these agents are violating NAR code of ethics.
Why do Agents mislead the buyers with incorrect sq ft of the house they're selling?
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