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- Allan Newman, "Sir Allan"
- Contributions:1231
If I was the govvie I would let them all collapse . Then offer them a 'rebuilding bailout' ONLY if they produced plug in hybrids that get 60 miles per charge or more. No more producing straight gas vehicles.
The gov has an opportunity to FINALLY squeeze the auto makers into making electric cars and there is nothing the oil lobbiests can do about it because the big 3 are at the mercy of the taxpayer dollars.
- Socialist
- Contributions:446
Diesel is the way of the future, not hybrids.
we would be better off picking up the tab for everyone's pensions than bailing them out. You are right debts- this 'bail out a failure' is getting pretty old. They had the chance to be innovative, and the came out with the 'Volt'??? That's all they have? Blegh..
allan- wouldn't that be something???
- Allan Newman, "Sir Allan"
- Contributions:1231
Electric vehicles are the future. We are talking consumer use. Not commerical or airline. We still got lots of use for deisel and oil.
But taking the consumer demand off oil and putting it onto the electrical grid where we got nuke plants, and more coal than the middle east has oil, we slash the price of oil down to 20 bucks a barrel and airline prices get cheaper, producing consumer goods and transport gets way cheaper.
Ive thought this out and electric consumer vehicles is the BEST answer.
- BMFPitt
- Contributions:1207
Not only would I let them fail, but I would dance on their graves.
the fear is that thousands of people will lose their jobs, pensions, etc.. But this assumes that these failing companies are irreplaceable. Which they ARE NOT. replace them with Toyota, Honda, Mini, Smart cars and scooter manufacturers! :)
But yes, Allan- if we went electric- or even super-high mileage, we'd be well on our way to having a better quality of life on many different fronts. Who thought it was a GOOD idea to design inefficient vehicles and then elevate them to being a 'status symbol'? Let them go the way of the dinosaur.
- klarek the realist
- Contributions:7044
"Diesel is the way of the future, not hybrids."
Hybrids and EVs are the way of the future, we just need better fuel cell technology. It'll take time, but it'll happen.
- Allan Newman, "Sir Allan"
- Contributions:1231
Jen I agree with letting them FLOP but why not just steal all the ideas from Honda and Toyo and simply get GM Ford and Chrysler to make even BETTER EVs ?
No need to keep Toyo and Honda soaking all the money back to Japan.
allan- they pay their US workers in greenbacks, just like Ford. If Ford had any brains at all, they would have been making cars to compete, instead of Excursions to drive some 115 pound trophy wife to the grocery store ;) hehehe... All I'm saying is, they had their chance. They failed. They can be replaced. Whether that is with an American company or not remains to be seen. Also, keep in mind that while the big three are moving their plants to Mexico, these foreign companies ARE building plants in the US. That says something to me.
- Allan Newman, "Sir Allan"
- Contributions:1231
Jen . Good points. I would rather the big three just reorganize and sell EVs and keep the plants here. No outsourcing the cheap labor to mexico. Not if they want a bailout.
- Socialist
- Contributions:446
Electric is pointless technology that does nothing to alleviate us from fossil fuels.
allan- that would be great, and if they DO get a bailout, there has to be serious input on what they build- and they MUST keep plants open, or open new ones here. Think that will happen?
soc- how do you figure that???
- Allan Newman, "Sir Allan"
- Contributions:1231
I have to disagree Social. The reason being electricity can be produced with EVERY form of energy there is. Wind, Solar, Nuke, Coal , even hydrogen.
Electrons are the most abundant object in the universe. Its clean and abundant.
Did you know the fossil fuels were created with photonic energy ? Oil , coal and whatnot are all created as sunlight trapped in boidegradable material.
In 50 years we will be able to harness a totally efficient solar panel to harness all the nuclear energy coming off the sun and we wont need any other energy at all. The sun is a huge thermonuclear oven and sooner or later we will be sucking all the energy off it for our use.
- Socialist
- Contributions:446
Diesel does not require fossil fuels or energy to run.
Electric cars still need to be charged, and we cannot get all our electricity from wind and solar.
??? solar, wind, water, nuclear... what else do we need??
PS- you know those corn fields they used to plow under for subdivisions? how about turning them into 'solar fields'? Anyone have any idea what kind of energy could be produced? anyone?
- Socialist
- Contributions:446
yes lets destroy our land with solar, wind, water and nuclear.
now I'm just confused...
- Terri Linnell, "DebtsNMesses"
- Contributions:6728
Jen, I do know. Many areas find solar as not efficient. Wind is more efficient in most of the country. Oh, and it takes oil to make the solar panels. Where corn was grown, is NOT solar areas.
- Socialist
- Contributions:446
Jennifer,
My point was these technologies already require a vast amount of our land, and they are not even close to being our main source of electricity. Add cars to the grid....and you are going to need a lot more land devoted to green energy.
- Socialist
- Contributions:446
Jennifer,
My point was these technologies already require a vast amount of our land, and they are not even close to being our main source of electricity. Add cars to the grid....and you are going to need a lot more land devoted to green energy.
- Geoff Cochems, "gcochems"
- Contributions:1055
"the fear is that thousands of people will lose their jobs, pensions, etc.. But this assumes that these failing companies are irreplaceable. Which they ARE NOT. replace them with Toyota, Honda, Mini, Smart cars and scooter manufacturers! :)"
A safer estimate for lost jobs is likely to be in the millions Jen...Not just at GM because it would create a snowball effect on suppliers from the major ones to the smaller 2nd and 3rd level suppliers that will cascade down to small business and wreak even more havoc. The big three are handcuffed by the unions that have represented their labor force for decades...they simply do not have the expendable cash to research and develop new technology at a large enough level. Electric vehicles have not caught on with the American public and it's doubtful it ever will and while hybrid is a good "feel good" approach the cost/benefit does not make sense for most Americans...why pay 5k more for a car that gets 5 mpg better then a non hybrid? I happen to agree with Socialist that diesel is a solution that is far more likely to see success then most other techinologies currently
Solar, wind and nuclear are great and are being used here now...at least in CA. That said I think geo-thermal needs to be explored more and I think it is far more viable on a large level...heck when I worked NAWC China Lake 10 years ago the entire base was powered by geo-thermal electricity
- Terri Linnell, "DebtsNMesses"
- Contributions:6728
I can get a rebate for solar, not wind. My uncle is the opposite. Why? Because our wind mills in most of my area do not run a lot. Enough to keep the water pumped from the well into the holding tank is all, but not full time usage like constant electricity.
Did you know there is not enough land in the whole usa to grow enough corn to put in our tanks?
- Geoff Cochems, "gcochems"
- Contributions:1055
"Did you know there is not enough land in the whole usa to grow enough corn to put in our tanks?"
Yup E85 is definitely not the answer...hopefully with diesel prices coming back in line we'll see some more development there.
- Socialist
- Contributions:446
My only concern about the fall in prices it that it could slow the progress of growing diesel through bacteria that consume CO2. It solves 2 problems at once and should be looked into further.
- nlogan
- Contributions:84
So because the auto industry made stupid deals with the labor unions, our tax dollars are needed to make sure they stay afloat?
A vehicle made by the Big 3 has around $1500 worth of Union Labor/Healthcare costs in it. A car made in the US by say Toyota has around $400 worth of Union Labor/Healthcare cost in it.
The Big 3 can jam a Big Foot right up their corn holes as far as I'm concerned.
- Terri Linnell, "DebtsNMesses"
- Contributions:6728
but...but...but they just paid the dems 30 million for the election! They gotta get help.
- toner cowboy
- Contributions:360
Maybe post 1/20/09 they will find a way to spread the extra cost of the big 3 to all the producers of cars??
- Socialist
- Contributions:446
Did you know we have diesel engines already obtaining over 100 miles to the gallon? We have diesel hybrids bringing in 225 mpg. And we haven't even scratched the surface of diesel electric drive...it is only technology that has been around for the last 100 years and drives the worlds cargo ships, cruise ships and American locomotives.
Yet the american public is in love with gas hybrids and electric cars...it saddens me.
- nlogan
- Contributions:84
Look, as far as I am concerned, it matters not how vehicles get great mileage: be it gas, electric, diesel, hybrids, etc.........
Unfortunately, no matter how much money the Big 3 get from the taxpayers, nothing will change. They are stuck with the labor agreements they have made. And now that oil is half the price it was in the summer, they will continue their standard buisness practices.
When do the handouts end? I was always under the impression that if a buisness has a viable model, it can succeed. It seems clear that under the current model of the US auto industry, that their buisness model failed; thus, their model stinks, and they should go out of buinsess. Someone will replace them....they always do.
My 2cents.
- Teia VanHorn, "Teia93"
- Contributions:205
My future husband has a Huge defender seats 9 people weight a CRAP load and gets 30-35 miles per gallon, TD3 engine, also runs off biodiesel. Plus his friend converted his to run off Vegtable oil in his garage, by just adding an extra filter, because the Rovers already have two tanks. The auto industry makes it out to seem like it will be really hard to do stuff that shouldn't be that hard at all. I know it is a million jobs, that seems rough, but i think we need to let them go under so that time and energy will be geared towards somehting we are good at, and obiviously car making isnt it.
Why the Big Three Need Help!
A question was asked on the news today, that the big 3 need a bailout, yet the VW plant in the south are hiring! Why? Well, they were quick to point out that the VW plant doesn't have the number of retired workers to support...
... but nobody pointed out that the TDI Manual Diesel Bug, Golf, Jetta and Jetta Wagon last over 300,000 miles, almost no repairs, and get 45mpg without a bunch of 'special' green stuff, expensive batteries, etc. When the big 3 can create a product that is in high demand, then they will make money. Why bailout inferior products?
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