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Why thinking you'll be okay if you're in it for the "long term" could be a Bad Mistake.

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January 04 - San Francisco

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Profile picture for sunnyview
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Good thread that deserves a read.
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January 04
Profile picture for K101
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Keep em rolling, Spleng.

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January 04
Profile picture for Lady Chattel
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Thanks for bumping, I is having a hard time dealing with this Zillow mess and frankly I is too lazy to go looking for it all. 
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January 04

If everyone had a negative attitude like that 75 years ago we would still be in the great depression.  You need to look at history and history always seems to repeat itself.  The economy is essentially a ten year cycle it goes up and it goes down.  Timing the real estate market is like trying to time the stock market and the pros seem to miss the perfect time to buy over and over again.


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January 04
Profile picture for aapostrophe
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yes rich dear, but do these timing pros buy a bunch of dumb stock when they know that chances are incredibly high that they could get it tomorrow for much cheaper?

and, do they take out a loan for 6 times their yearly income to make that bet?

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January 04
Profile picture for aapostrophe
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also, the stock market self corrects a hundred million times a day.  every minute you are seeing what someone is willing to pay for a particular stock right then.
home prices are not tracked on a second by second basis, and a trend is not apt to switch directions quickly once it gets going.  
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January 04
Profile picture for CHUTTA
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Rich,

I don't agree that its "always" a ten year cycle, but it is a cycle.  The question I would pose to you is shouldn't people buy at the best possible price?

Why buy if the market still is showing a decline?

I've started to see this "negativity" comment on these boards lately.  As if people should buy because it is their responsibility to bite the bullet for the good of the Nation. 

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January 04
Profile picture for White Picture
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there are not call for the sacrifice, the call is people do what is make sense to them,
buy in the market that mortgage+tax <= rent, have good income to support for the mortgage, etc...

the jobs will be safer If the people living in the improve ecomomy, if the people have the job, they can pay for the mortgage.
if the economy going down, the job will be lost, they can't buy the house, even if they have the big down payment.

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January 04
Profile picture for CHUTTA
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Hoang,
I agree with you that people should buy because it makes sense to them.  If the numbers work out for you personally to buy then you should buy.

I do not agree that we should because its "negative" to not buy.  I do not agree that people should buy because "prices are low" (when odds are prices will continue to go lower). 

The idea that the "negative" information provided by the Doomers is somehow affecting the economy is ridiculous.  The economy is in the shape it is in, because of a variety of reasons, but not one of those reasons would include a Doomer saying "its not a good time to buy".
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January 04
Profile picture for White Picture
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Hi Chutta !
you right about " The economy is in the shape it is in, because of a variety of reasons, but not one of those reasons would include a Doomer saying "its not a good time to buy". "

If some one don't believe in "what make sense to them", then they should not to buy, because they don't know what to do any way.
and usually the people want to got the experience from their own  experienced. that why we see that the buyer today, they know every thing about the market thru media.
How economy is ? and they still go for it.
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January 04
Profile picture for CHUTTA
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Hoang,
If you are an experienced buyer or believe you are an experienced buyer and you feel that it is a good time to buy then buy.  This market is tricky, I tend to believe that most "investor" buying (non-occupant) buying has very high risk attached.  Are there good value buys?  Yes.  No doubt, but what I think most of the Doomer message is aimed at those Buyer's who do not know much about the market.  These are the people who are bombarded with 'its a great time to buy", but that message is not backed with anything other then a slogan.

the Realtor's on this board are not here to market to people such as you because you will make that decision yourself based upon your circumstances and your belief that you know value when you see it.  The Realtor's who are cheerleading for buyers to jump off the fence are praying on those that don't know much about the current market or RE and will be putting their faith in the hands of these "professionals".  I for one think that is wrong and for those that are looking to buy a home (not an investor) most market indicators in most markets are saying you take less risk in waiting and will probably get a better deal.

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January 04
Profile picture for White Picture
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Well..... phew...w..w.w
that is why we need the balance power of both parties ( democrat and republican ) ;-)
and tell the truth, I see the improvement of the comments lately ( Doomer or cheerleader).
Not very much bias , that is what we need, yes ?
for example :
In the Doomer kingdom : SunnyView the princess, Chutta the highest advisor, however K101 the queen is not yet improved.
In the Cheerleader kingdom : I see some of their comments are improved, also ( i don't remember their names )
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January 04
Profile picture for CHUTTA
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balance of power?  maybe balance of truth.

Although I think I would have to disagree with you.  I am not a Doomer.  I would say that I am a Cheerleader for those who know what they are doing.  Those people do not need to be told that its a good time to buy, because they are always looking.

I might sound like a Doomer, because I do believe that this is an extremely tricky market.  Can you find good value?  Yes.  Should you buy if you see value in certain product?  Yes.  Should you trust the REA who says "its a good time to buy" without any justification?  No.

There are more bad buys in the market then good buys.  Its a great time to buy if you know what you are doing and what you are looking for, because you are able to evaluate the property yourself and know what value is to you.  My concern on these boards are for those who will put that trust in an Agent who might not be qualified to consult correctly.  That is why I do not support the statement "its a great time to buy", because that is untrue for the majority of property on the market.

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January 04

If you can buy a house for less money a month than the rent you are paying and it is something you really like you would be a foul not to get it.  I’m buying houses now and 5 or 8 years from now I be worth a lot more than I am now.  So keep up that bad attitude and drive the market down some more so I can buy some more houses even cheaper and when the market turns I’ll make even more money.

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January 04
Profile picture for White Picture
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you are the high command of peace keeper, then :-)
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January 04
Profile picture for CHUTTA
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Rich,
I don't understand your argument.  On one hand you say "its good to buy now", but on the other you say negativity will continue to drive the market down so that you will "make even more money" when you move into buy houses at cheaper prices..  Why would you tell your clients to buy now, if you are going to wait for the market to drop?  If you see the market continuing to drop and you will wait to move in and buy, then why wouldn't you tell them to wait until you move in? 

hmmm... interesting.  Must be that commission.

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January 04
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Rich,
I reread your post.   I misquoted... you are buying now.  good for you.  But the argument still holds.  If you believe negativity drives the market down, then why buy now.  Wait until you can get the homes at a better price.  You would "make even more money". 

I don't understand the logic.
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January 04
It is simple.  Most anything you buy now that is a good investment will increase in value when the market turns.  So I have bought a couple of rentals.  They will break even as a rental, Make me money as a tax deduction, make me even more when they are finaly sold by me or the grandkids.  Any that I buy down the road will do all of the above and make even more money as the market recovers.  I do tell my customers to do just what I am doing and some do.
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January 04
Profile picture for White Picture
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Hi Chutta, Some peoples don't know, wait for how long ?
They just want to buy and keep move on with their another subject.
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January 04
Profile picture for CHUTTA
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Some peoples don't know, wait for how long ?

It's going to differ from market to market.  Its just... well Hoang, as we have said each to his own as an investor.  I just don't believe that Rich's example of a couple of rentals that "breakeven" are good investments. 

In this market anything we buy now at a minimum has to be returning at a 12-14% Cap rate or have a projected 20-30% ROI within the next 6-18 months.  "breakeven" in my opinion... this market when people say its a buyer's market you need to see true value and Return on Investment.

So I guess Hoang, that is why I would be considered a Doomer.  I just don't see the value that these Realtors are saying are "great investments" and then trying to put their customers into the same thing.
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January 04
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Hoang as an investor the above sort of returns is what we believe are out there and that there will be more coming on the market in the near future.  There is no need to rush in this market as true value is out there.
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January 04
Profile picture for K101
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"In the Doomer kingdom : SunnyView the princess, Chutta the highest advisor, however K101 the queen is not yet improved."

Hoang, I thought you were fairly new to Zillow.  How are you so familiar with the "doomer" and "cheerleader" "kingdoms"?  Especially since those terms have not been used nearly as much here in the last few months?

Interesting.

That was quite an outburst from that troll the other day, with all the multiple posts directed at Zillow and "Doomers"- don't you think?  It came on the heels of Klarek's post about the largest decline in RE ever.  Sounded just like our old "friend" BellaCheapCrazyGuy....
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January 05
Profile picture for klarek the realist
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Rich, no offense, but I think you pulled that "ten year cycle" bit out of your ass.  Original, but completely bogus.
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January 05
I made money in the down turns of the 80's&90's and make make way more in this one.  I've done it before and I'll do it again.
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January 05
How much have you doomers made?
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January 05
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Rich

Red herring arguments.  95% of the people here are looking for shelter, not investment opportunities.  One of the major factors in the implosion of house prices was that the most marginal buyers were enticed to believe that it didn't matter how out of whack house prices were relative to anything, it only mattered that they buy now without looking at the consequences.  Fast forward 3 years and we are now just in the middle of the "Great Unwind".

If you are savvy and educated about real estate investments, than I don't care what you do, however, don;t fabricate that past investment experience will equal future experience to shelter buyers.

And in terms of rent vs buy, its still way out of whack (as i have documented here many times) in teh upper $ spectrum and I see that now starting to "trickle down" to the mid tier properties.
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January 05
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I sold my condo before my market collapsed last year so I did okay.  But if I were stupid enough to follow you're advice, whatever down payment I make on anything I buy now would evaporate within a year.  Have fun catching a falling knife.  Everybody I know that thought they were smart "buying in a down market" is kicking themselves now. 
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January 05
Profile picture for brtlmj
If everyone had a negative attitude like that 75 years ago we would still be in the great depression.

If everyone had a negative attitude like that 400 years ago, the tulip prices would never recover!

Oh, wait, they never did...
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January 05
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January 05
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Rich,
You never answered my question.  Why do you care if the market is driven down.  As you pointed out you make more money in a down market.  Too me if you really believe Doomer's are the ones driving the market down, that you would embrace them.  As an investor that would only mean you make more money.

Also selling people homes at "breakeven" cash-flow and telling them its a sound investment... good luck on that one.
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January 05

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