- Find a Real Estate Professional
- Realtors®
- Mortgage Lenders
- Home Improvement Pros
- Other Real Estate Services
- Review an Agent, Lender or Pro
- Marketing on Zillow
- Real Estate Agent Advertising
- Join the Professional Directory
- Popular
- Real Estate Market Reports
- More
- John Stewart, "nwhome.us"
- Contributions:2158
Sunnyview, as always, level. Nice clip; makes one cringe.
- Tonya Brobeck, "Tonya Brobeck"
- Contributions:637
Pasadenan,
I only am chiming in to clarify that agents "do not" need to join the NAR to access the MLS. The MLS is a seperate identity, they run there own statistics, provide a seperate service.
The NAR office is an association by the broker. If that broker chooses to be part of the NAR, the agents within that office are required to be members of the NAR.
If the broker (office) is not a member of the NAR, then the agents can not become members of the NAR unless they already were a realtor and switched brokers (moved offices).
Hope that helps clarify some things. I do agree with you that some agents/realtors may just become a member because it's their status quo in their office, however, I do believe that agents will also become realtors because they are held to a higher standard of ethics, which, they are also more closely monitored by the board, including their interactions with clients, consumers, etc.
One would have to ask each realtor to find out their motive. I have found however, that generally speaking a Realtor vs an Agent operates in a more professional manner. Not always, but, I have seen it more then not. Especially in these trying times.
I only am chiming in to clarify that agents "do not" need to join the NAR to access the MLS. The MLS is a seperate identity, they run there own statistics, provide a seperate service.
The NAR office is an association by the broker. If that broker chooses to be part of the NAR, the agents within that office are required to be members of the NAR.
If the broker (office) is not a member of the NAR, then the agents can not become members of the NAR unless they already were a realtor and switched brokers (moved offices).
Hope that helps clarify some things. I do agree with you that some agents/realtors may just become a member because it's their status quo in their office, however, I do believe that agents will also become realtors because they are held to a higher standard of ethics, which, they are also more closely monitored by the board, including their interactions with clients, consumers, etc.
One would have to ask each realtor to find out their motive. I have found however, that generally speaking a Realtor vs an Agent operates in a more professional manner. Not always, but, I have seen it more then not. Especially in these trying times.
- sunnyview
- Contributions:25120
I am not big on NAR bashing, but the NAR is a sales organization. Take a look at this clip from NAR president here from 2/2008. He says that it's time to buy. Since then, the market has fallen in most areas with the US median falling from 224K to 186K or about 16%. Here we are in 2/2010 and it is clear that he and the stand of the larger organization was wrong. People that followed his advice are probably underwater right now unable to refinance or move. Not a good stand for the NAR to take in terms of responsible homeownership.
Realtors do not become responsible for the sins of their organization, but I find myself wishing that the NAR was advocating for a healthy market instead of sell at any cost.
Realtors do not become responsible for the sins of their organization, but I find myself wishing that the NAR was advocating for a healthy market instead of sell at any cost.
- Pasadenan
- Contributions:21424
I posted the relevant data on the property in this thread, you didn't. I also posted how the system works and why the data was not there, and why the location was wrong on the map and where it was really located; and you didn't.
Everyone reading this already knows what the National Association of Realtors is (NAR), and have read their "talking points" as well as the official statements issued by their official spokes people.
I don't need to quote the statements; anyone that has been paying attention has already seen them, and they can look them up themselves.
If you really think it is so important to know how many licensed Real Estate agents there are in Washington State, and how many licensed Real Estate brokers there are in Washington State, and how many of the licensed Real Estate agents pay money to NAR every year for "membership", you can post that, but it is completely irrelevant to the discussion.
The majority of licensed agents and brokers become members of NAR to access the Multiple Listings for the area; not because they believe the national propaganda nor because they think that their code of ethics is enforced or that it has any value beyond that required by the law in the first place.
If you really want to make it about "your license", I can look that info up just as easily as any other "facts" that you think I should provide.
Everyone reading this already knows what the National Association of Realtors is (NAR), and have read their "talking points" as well as the official statements issued by their official spokes people.
I don't need to quote the statements; anyone that has been paying attention has already seen them, and they can look them up themselves.
If you really think it is so important to know how many licensed Real Estate agents there are in Washington State, and how many licensed Real Estate brokers there are in Washington State, and how many of the licensed Real Estate agents pay money to NAR every year for "membership", you can post that, but it is completely irrelevant to the discussion.
The majority of licensed agents and brokers become members of NAR to access the Multiple Listings for the area; not because they believe the national propaganda nor because they think that their code of ethics is enforced or that it has any value beyond that required by the law in the first place.
If you really want to make it about "your license", I can look that info up just as easily as any other "facts" that you think I should provide.
- John Stewart, "nwhome.us"
- Contributions:2158
I love your free association, Pas. From most of the posts that you write I find that you have a deep seated distrust in people and prefer to rant, with very few facts, about all sorts of issues. It's really too bad because I really appreciate your alignment with a differing point of view.
I'm attempting to clarify for those who might read this stuff that a Realtor is a member of the National Association of Realtors and that your opinion of the association is not based in much fact (for one who idolizes fact, there seems to be a disconnect). For example, it would be enlightening if you could present one direct quote from NAR, not a member, that states "real estate values will never go down." Or do you always associate an individual's actions so closely with a broader group membership?
I'm attempting to clarify for those who might read this stuff that a Realtor is a member of the National Association of Realtors and that your opinion of the association is not based in much fact (for one who idolizes fact, there seems to be a disconnect). For example, it would be enlightening if you could present one direct quote from NAR, not a member, that states "real estate values will never go down." Or do you always associate an individual's actions so closely with a broader group membership?
- Pasadenan
- Contributions:21424
As mentioned, before, a "trade mark" indicating membership in NAR only indicates that the people are willing to put up with the "propaganda" spread by that association.
CountryWide had over 100 active registered trade marks. Does that mean they ran an ethical business? Does that mean they didn't have to be bought out?
If you could not even provide the address nor the parcel number, nor even a link to the county records for the SPECIFIC property in the discussion, why would anyone expect you to provide "accurate information"?
I really don't care how many licensed real estate agents in Washington State (nor Kirkland) are NOT members of NAR. It makes no difference to me. Based ONLY on the posts you have made on this thread, I would choose an agent that was NOT a member of NAR before I would hire John Stewart.
CountryWide had over 100 active registered trade marks. Does that mean they ran an ethical business? Does that mean they didn't have to be bought out?
If you could not even provide the address nor the parcel number, nor even a link to the county records for the SPECIFIC property in the discussion, why would anyone expect you to provide "accurate information"?
I really don't care how many licensed real estate agents in Washington State (nor Kirkland) are NOT members of NAR. It makes no difference to me. Based ONLY on the posts you have made on this thread, I would choose an agent that was NOT a member of NAR before I would hire John Stewart.
- John Stewart, "nwhome.us"
- Contributions:2158
"Can you please tell us what you think a Realtor is and what percentage of State licensees are Realtors"?
And your response to this question? What we are looking for is simple definition that precludes personal opinion and is based on a trade mark definition and is a definition that is understood by those who use the term correctly. It is frequently not understood, however, by those who are not in the industry and so therefore has a common, trademarked, definition. This differs from individuals who are licensed real estate practitioners, commonly called Brokers or Agents. If you'd like to sit in the high tower of accuracy, how accurate can you be about this definition?
If you bother to make contact with the local building department (in this case Kirkland) before you talked about what they do and don't do, you will find that it is the owner's responsibility, not the department's to record address changes on title. This point was made in my original post which suggested contacting the title company for support.
And your response to this question? What we are looking for is simple definition that precludes personal opinion and is based on a trade mark definition and is a definition that is understood by those who use the term correctly. It is frequently not understood, however, by those who are not in the industry and so therefore has a common, trademarked, definition. This differs from individuals who are licensed real estate practitioners, commonly called Brokers or Agents. If you'd like to sit in the high tower of accuracy, how accurate can you be about this definition?
If you bother to make contact with the local building department (in this case Kirkland) before you talked about what they do and don't do, you will find that it is the owner's responsibility, not the department's to record address changes on title. This point was made in my original post which suggested contacting the title company for support.
- Pasadenan
- Contributions:21424
My observation is only from reading the Realtor advertisements and listings in the multiples.
Yes, over 50% of all "professionals" intentionally commit fraud, backed up by their colleges, knowing they will never get caught.
It is "worse" for those that are members of NAR, as NAR has been publishing blatantly false propaganda for at least 10 years. (Such as "real estate values will never go down").
So, would you testify against a Realtor in your local area for over stating the square footage of the house by 8 square feet, and over stating the lot size by 172 square feet, and over stating the number of bedrooms by 25%, and over stating the number of bathrooms by 5%?
Your willingness to "defend" those that publish inaccurate information for what ever reason indicates you are biased, and that all that threat of litigation and prison time is meaningless.
Would you like me to start investigating all your listings and start filing complaints with your local board and your state board every time you have a 5% discrepancy? Would you like me to "prove" that you "should" have known better?
Obviously not worth my time, which is why so many "professionals" get away with errors, carelessness, and outright distortion.
I've been a licensed professional long enough to know that most professionals don't have the accuracy standards that I do, and that I still make at least 10 errors a day.
As to the address; yes a city building department can assign a new address to the new structure, but the building department is also responsible for filing the forms with the county to update the records when such changes are made.
As to your "claim" about wanting to provide accurate information, how come you didn't provide the CORRECT parcel number and reference to the specific county records for the specific property in the discussion with your original post? Perhaps because you were too lazy to look it up, and just wanted to provide a sales pitch instead?
Yes, over 50% of all "professionals" intentionally commit fraud, backed up by their colleges, knowing they will never get caught.
It is "worse" for those that are members of NAR, as NAR has been publishing blatantly false propaganda for at least 10 years. (Such as "real estate values will never go down").
So, would you testify against a Realtor in your local area for over stating the square footage of the house by 8 square feet, and over stating the lot size by 172 square feet, and over stating the number of bedrooms by 25%, and over stating the number of bathrooms by 5%?
Your willingness to "defend" those that publish inaccurate information for what ever reason indicates you are biased, and that all that threat of litigation and prison time is meaningless.
Would you like me to start investigating all your listings and start filing complaints with your local board and your state board every time you have a 5% discrepancy? Would you like me to "prove" that you "should" have known better?
Obviously not worth my time, which is why so many "professionals" get away with errors, carelessness, and outright distortion.
I've been a licensed professional long enough to know that most professionals don't have the accuracy standards that I do, and that I still make at least 10 errors a day.
As to the address; yes a city building department can assign a new address to the new structure, but the building department is also responsible for filing the forms with the county to update the records when such changes are made.
As to your "claim" about wanting to provide accurate information, how come you didn't provide the CORRECT parcel number and reference to the specific county records for the specific property in the discussion with your original post? Perhaps because you were too lazy to look it up, and just wanted to provide a sales pitch instead?
- John Stewart, "nwhome.us"
- Contributions:2158
Interesting generalizations Pasadenan.
Your attitude completely discounts the fact that most of us choose to do this work professionally with a mission that includes honesty and an attention to detail.
Fraud is always defined as intentionally distorting true facts. Fraud is immediately punishable by litigation, huge fines, loss of license or prison time. Your accusations that the "majority of Realtors" commit fraud severely weakens your argument. Can you please tell us what you think a Realtor is and what percentage of State licensees are Realtors?
The post office (Feds) and municipal departments actually grant address changes. The fire department and police want to know where to go in the case of an emergency. If one lives in a community that is governed by a county, then yes, the county would be involved, but otherwise it is the city or town. Call your local building department and post office for address change information. Do you happen to know what the number of households in Kirkalnd is? And how many errors of this exact kind there are in the system? And once you have that percentage, how does that compare to the error rate in county record keeping or MLS input error? (a hint: there are 24,000 members inputting data into the NWMLS. I haven't counted the possible data fields)
Otherwise your recommendation that buyers should satisfy themselves with their own due diligent research is good but not for the conclusions that you suggest. I think the reason is that we all have very diverse perspectives on how we want to live our lives. Yours are not mine. When purchasing a home the buyer needs to reach their own educated conclusions of what will work for them and not blame someone else for making those decisions. Its called taking responsibility for your decisions. My job as a professional is to help them find and interpret as much of that information as possible.
Your attitude completely discounts the fact that most of us choose to do this work professionally with a mission that includes honesty and an attention to detail.
Fraud is always defined as intentionally distorting true facts. Fraud is immediately punishable by litigation, huge fines, loss of license or prison time. Your accusations that the "majority of Realtors" commit fraud severely weakens your argument. Can you please tell us what you think a Realtor is and what percentage of State licensees are Realtors?
The post office (Feds) and municipal departments actually grant address changes. The fire department and police want to know where to go in the case of an emergency. If one lives in a community that is governed by a county, then yes, the county would be involved, but otherwise it is the city or town. Call your local building department and post office for address change information. Do you happen to know what the number of households in Kirkalnd is? And how many errors of this exact kind there are in the system? And once you have that percentage, how does that compare to the error rate in county record keeping or MLS input error? (a hint: there are 24,000 members inputting data into the NWMLS. I haven't counted the possible data fields)
Otherwise your recommendation that buyers should satisfy themselves with their own due diligent research is good but not for the conclusions that you suggest. I think the reason is that we all have very diverse perspectives on how we want to live our lives. Yours are not mine. When purchasing a home the buyer needs to reach their own educated conclusions of what will work for them and not blame someone else for making those decisions. Its called taking responsibility for your decisions. My job as a professional is to help them find and interpret as much of that information as possible.
- Pasadenan
- Contributions:21424
"As far as discrepancies in the SF, beds, baths, etc. goes it seems prudent to place the most accurate information possible on any listing" -
Yes, it "seems" prudent, but it appears than many will just put the larger numbers in the listings to increase the offers. They all have that "disclaimer" regarding "accuracy".
I would trust the county records before I would trust a listing (advertisement). As stated before, if there is any discrepancy, a potential buyer needs to verify the info themselves as the agents have vested interests in not providing the real information, and most of them seem to either not care, not have the time, nor not know how to check it.
It is easy to see how one can have different numbers on the square footage; even though the building code states to use the outside dimensions, there are many ares not to be included in the square footage, either due to ceiling height too low, or not being conditioned space; and many just pace it off or round off to nearest 1/2 foot, rather than measuring to 1/8". And trim on the houses can easily throw measurements off by more than 1".
But the lot area??? If the plot is accurately drawn, any machine can tell you the area. Most lots are not perfect rectangles, so you don't just multiply the width by the length; but I'm sure that is how the majority of Realtors do it; and they probably use the larger dimensions...
Bedrooms? A room can be used for any number of different uses. But the building code states whether it can be counted as a bedroom or not. Sometimes an owner will under-report to a county or building department to lower their tax liability. But a seller may say they have a bedroom, even though it is in a basement, or doesn't have required windows or egress...
In short, the Multiples are not intended to be an "accurate" source of information. If they were, they wouldn't all have the disclaimers on them. Instead, it is intended to just be a shared advertisement resource owned by the Realtors.
It doesn't mean the county records are any more accurate, as those records only reflect what was reported and recorded; but the title of the land should be clear and that should determine an accurate lot size.
Since the county is usually the one issuing the new address for a new structure (and not just the local building department), I'm surprised the address has not been updated in the county records yet.
Possibly an indication that there is something fishy in the building permit? I wouldn't make an offer on such property without looking up a copy of the permit, and checking the building department's records.
Yes, it "seems" prudent, but it appears than many will just put the larger numbers in the listings to increase the offers. They all have that "disclaimer" regarding "accuracy".
I would trust the county records before I would trust a listing (advertisement). As stated before, if there is any discrepancy, a potential buyer needs to verify the info themselves as the agents have vested interests in not providing the real information, and most of them seem to either not care, not have the time, nor not know how to check it.
It is easy to see how one can have different numbers on the square footage; even though the building code states to use the outside dimensions, there are many ares not to be included in the square footage, either due to ceiling height too low, or not being conditioned space; and many just pace it off or round off to nearest 1/2 foot, rather than measuring to 1/8". And trim on the houses can easily throw measurements off by more than 1".
But the lot area??? If the plot is accurately drawn, any machine can tell you the area. Most lots are not perfect rectangles, so you don't just multiply the width by the length; but I'm sure that is how the majority of Realtors do it; and they probably use the larger dimensions...
Bedrooms? A room can be used for any number of different uses. But the building code states whether it can be counted as a bedroom or not. Sometimes an owner will under-report to a county or building department to lower their tax liability. But a seller may say they have a bedroom, even though it is in a basement, or doesn't have required windows or egress...
In short, the Multiples are not intended to be an "accurate" source of information. If they were, they wouldn't all have the disclaimers on them. Instead, it is intended to just be a shared advertisement resource owned by the Realtors.
It doesn't mean the county records are any more accurate, as those records only reflect what was reported and recorded; but the title of the land should be clear and that should determine an accurate lot size.
Since the county is usually the one issuing the new address for a new structure (and not just the local building department), I'm surprised the address has not been updated in the county records yet.
Possibly an indication that there is something fishy in the building permit? I wouldn't make an offer on such property without looking up a copy of the permit, and checking the building department's records.
- John Stewart, "nwhome.us"
- Contributions:2158
Q. we know the multiples don't reference the county records, except whatever the agent feels like copying from there.
A. The county parcel number is a required field in the multiple input form. The NWMLS uses a 3rd party called Reallist to bring the county record up. We all know that county public records are not always accurate. This is why it is so important to include a full legal description with an offer to purchase. Our contracts are void without them.
Q. Why else would the agent for the subject property lot list the parcel number, and have square footage, lot size, and number of bedrooms that differs from the county records?
A. Rushed closings also trip title companies up at times. For some reason the parcel number on this specific property still leads to the 664 address. You might be able to point at the RE agent if you felt, as I do, that it is their job to read the title commitment and follow through with any errors, but legally agents do not accept this responsibility. The error is coming from the county. They have the wrong address. The escrow recording in October should have changed this. As far as discrepancies in the SF, beds, baths, etc. goes it seems prudent to place the most accurate informationi possible on any listing, no matter where it comes from.
All of this is something that the owner has to take responsibility for. It is amazing that the title company isn't being more proactive on their behalf. This is what they are paid to get right.
A. The county parcel number is a required field in the multiple input form. The NWMLS uses a 3rd party called Reallist to bring the county record up. We all know that county public records are not always accurate. This is why it is so important to include a full legal description with an offer to purchase. Our contracts are void without them.
Q. Why else would the agent for the subject property lot list the parcel number, and have square footage, lot size, and number of bedrooms that differs from the county records?
A. Rushed closings also trip title companies up at times. For some reason the parcel number on this specific property still leads to the 664 address. You might be able to point at the RE agent if you felt, as I do, that it is their job to read the title commitment and follow through with any errors, but legally agents do not accept this responsibility. The error is coming from the county. They have the wrong address. The escrow recording in October should have changed this. As far as discrepancies in the SF, beds, baths, etc. goes it seems prudent to place the most accurate informationi possible on any listing, no matter where it comes from.
All of this is something that the owner has to take responsibility for. It is amazing that the title company isn't being more proactive on their behalf. This is what they are paid to get right.
- Pasadenan
- Contributions:21424
By the way, we know the multiples don't reference the county records, except whatever the agent feels like copying from there. Why else would the agent for the subject property lot list the parcel number, and have square footage, lot size, and number of bedrooms that differs from the county records?
And how does the multiples handle two addresses on two separate parcels that are always sold together? They just put both addresses under one MLS number?
And how does the multiples handle two addresses on two separate parcels that are always sold together? They just put both addresses under one MLS number?
- Pasadenan
- Contributions:21424
How much is a Zillion? Is it more or less than a Quintillion?
- John Stewart, "nwhome.us"
- Contributions:2158
OMG is Crystal Lake still active!? I hate to go look....
Where's Gibbons, doesn't he have the programing lean?
Isn't there a point in syncronization where a conflict (or too-close-to-call)gets kicked out for human review? Does the property flag already accomplish this task?
It always astounds me that the NWMLS has about 24,000 people inputting data into their system and that it actually functions with such low percentages of error.
Zillow is processing zillions of data points? Way to go guys!
Where's Gibbons, doesn't he have the programing lean?
Isn't there a point in syncronization where a conflict (or too-close-to-call)gets kicked out for human review? Does the property flag already accomplish this task?
It always astounds me that the NWMLS has about 24,000 people inputting data into their system and that it actually functions with such low percentages of error.
Zillow is processing zillions of data points? Way to go guys!
- fname lname
- Contributions:43
Thanks again for all the input on this and the zillow staff official word on what agents/sellers are able to do and not able to do.
I'm pleased to hear that agents/sellers do not have access to an option that allows them to hide "zestimates & charts" since i find this information very useful when looking at properties.
My ask would be that you never expose that option to agents/sellers. I would suggest considering a policy that blocks agents from use of the service who are found to be knowingly using fake addresses in order to game the system.
I'm pleased to hear that agents/sellers do not have access to an option that allows them to hide "zestimates & charts" since i find this information very useful when looking at properties.
My ask would be that you never expose that option to agents/sellers. I would suggest considering a policy that blocks agents from use of the service who are found to be knowingly using fake addresses in order to game the system.
- Pasadenan
- Contributions:21424
Spencer -
Yes, I realize the automatic software cannot figure out the two different addresses are the same property, nor can it figure out that two different addresses are always sold together...
I'm just saying, that if a field existed to cross reference them, that when it is "discovered" they are the same or "closely related" (as in the Crystal Lake properties where the garages have separate addresses), the link can be filled in both ways, either by Zillow, or the owner, or an authorized agent.
For example, the one listed in this discussion. You are not going to change the 664 address to 658; so you cannot have the new record deleted; thus they should be cross referenced.
Yes, I realize the automatic software cannot figure out the two different addresses are the same property, nor can it figure out that two different addresses are always sold together...
I'm just saying, that if a field existed to cross reference them, that when it is "discovered" they are the same or "closely related" (as in the Crystal Lake properties where the garages have separate addresses), the link can be filled in both ways, either by Zillow, or the owner, or an authorized agent.
For example, the one listed in this discussion. You are not going to change the 664 address to 658; so you cannot have the new record deleted; thus they should be cross referenced.
- Spencer Rascoff, "spencer"
- Contributions:2093
Tonya,
No that's not what I'm saying. Agents and sellers don't get a choice. As long as we're able to match the address on the listing to the address in our database, we're going to show the Zestimate whether the agent or seller likes it or not. (Sorry.)
Unfortunately though, sometimes we're not able to match the addresses, which is why sometimes you see listings on Zillow without Zestimates.
Pasadenan,
If we were able to associate the two property records with one another despite their having slightly different addresses then we'd just match them up and have a single property show, thereby solving the problem. The issue is that we sometimes don't recognize that the two property records are actually from the same house.
No that's not what I'm saying. Agents and sellers don't get a choice. As long as we're able to match the address on the listing to the address in our database, we're going to show the Zestimate whether the agent or seller likes it or not. (Sorry.)
Unfortunately though, sometimes we're not able to match the addresses, which is why sometimes you see listings on Zillow without Zestimates.
Pasadenan,
If we were able to associate the two property records with one another despite their having slightly different addresses then we'd just match them up and have a single property show, thereby solving the problem. The issue is that we sometimes don't recognize that the two property records are actually from the same house.
- Tonya Brobeck, "Tonya Brobeck"
- Contributions:637
Spencer, so we have a choice when activating a listing on our side to show or not to show the zestimate feature now. Are you saying that should an agent mark not to show the zestimate, that, Zillow will indeed show it anyhow? Just curious, as I've never marked not to show it anyhow.
- John Stewart, "nwhome.us"
- Contributions:2158
Spencer, It encourages me to know that you don't have to follow the NWMLS rules on blogging and AVMs! Their attorneys are spending way too much time trying to anticipate problems that exist only for a few self centered individuals.
Pasadenan, I appreciate your ability to navigate the system and understand the mathmatics behind it. The OP sounds as though he is not interested in having to dig into it and understand. Please excuse my earlier sarcasm; I do see agents identiying properties in deceptive neighborhoods to accomplish what you are describinig, but intentionally mismapping doesn't do anything but rob a seller of potential buyers. It is usually an indication of a listing agent who isn't paying any attention to their job.
The current listing agent is a good one. She seemed genuinely concerned that informaton was incorrect and we will see how long it takes her to get it right.
Pasadenan, I appreciate your ability to navigate the system and understand the mathmatics behind it. The OP sounds as though he is not interested in having to dig into it and understand. Please excuse my earlier sarcasm; I do see agents identiying properties in deceptive neighborhoods to accomplish what you are describinig, but intentionally mismapping doesn't do anything but rob a seller of potential buyers. It is usually an indication of a listing agent who isn't paying any attention to their job.
The current listing agent is a good one. She seemed genuinely concerned that informaton was incorrect and we will see how long it takes her to get it right.
- Pasadenan
- Contributions:21424
Quick link to the County Records info for the subject property on Zillow:
home-info/48933132_zpid
home-info/48933132_zpid
- Pasadenan
- Contributions:21424
Spencer -
In cases where the address changed, or there are two property addresses that are always sold together as a package, how about providing a field to cross reference them? Then when it is discovered that the two addresses are really the same "transaction" or "property", the link can be filled in to allow one to quickly find the "for sale" data, or the "county record data"....
In cases where the address changed, or there are two property addresses that are always sold together as a package, how about providing a field to cross reference them? Then when it is discovered that the two addresses are really the same "transaction" or "property", the link can be filled in to allow one to quickly find the "for sale" data, or the "county record data"....
- Spencer Rascoff, "spencer"
- Contributions:2093
Hi everyone. This isn't a case of us allowing an agent or a seller to hide the Zestimate. It's a case of us not properly matching the address from the listing.
When a listing comes through a brokerage feed, we try to match it to one of our 90 million addresses. Sometimes we can't, for a variety of reasons. Sometimes the listings is new construction so it's not in our database; sometimes the address in the feed is slightly different than the address in the database (from county records) so we don't match them.
In that case, we show the listing information but we don't have a Zestimate for the listed home. Occasionally you can poke around on the map and find a duplicate of the home, one where it's for sale with no Zestimate and one where it's not for sale but has a Zestimate.
We're always working to improve our matching, but it's a difficult problem.
We don't allow sellers or agents to hide the Zestimate.
When a listing comes through a brokerage feed, we try to match it to one of our 90 million addresses. Sometimes we can't, for a variety of reasons. Sometimes the listings is new construction so it's not in our database; sometimes the address in the feed is slightly different than the address in the database (from county records) so we don't match them.
In that case, we show the listing information but we don't have a Zestimate for the listed home. Occasionally you can poke around on the map and find a duplicate of the home, one where it's for sale with no Zestimate and one where it's not for sale but has a Zestimate.
We're always working to improve our matching, but it's a difficult problem.
We don't allow sellers or agents to hide the Zestimate.
- Pasadenan
- Contributions:21424
So, what does the original ZPID entry NOW state regarding the property in question?
4bed/5bath; 4950sqft; 8975 sqft-lot; 2 story, finished basement, attached garage, parcel # 4308200150; sold 9/3/09: $1.42 Mil; $14,415 property tax-2008. Building assessed value: $1.165 mil; land assessed value: $651k; total assessed value: $1.816 mil; 2007 assessed value: $573k total; $5.06k 2007 property tax. Prior sale; 12/28/06: $689.95k
And the new ZPID entry by the Realtor?
5bed/4.75bath; 4958 sqft, 9147 sqft-lot; 2 story, finished basement, attached garage, no parcel #; last sold 9/3/09: $1.42 Mil.
Of course the property is the same especially as the last sold date and price match. As to the other discrepancies; I wouldn't trust either without checking it out. Possibly one bedroom in the finished basement? Possibly the Realtor just multiplied two numbers to get the lot size instead of checking the county records? If I had to guess, I would say, 4bed/4.75bath; 4950 sqft, 8975 sqft lot.
4bed/5bath; 4950sqft; 8975 sqft-lot; 2 story, finished basement, attached garage, parcel # 4308200150; sold 9/3/09: $1.42 Mil; $14,415 property tax-2008. Building assessed value: $1.165 mil; land assessed value: $651k; total assessed value: $1.816 mil; 2007 assessed value: $573k total; $5.06k 2007 property tax. Prior sale; 12/28/06: $689.95k
And the new ZPID entry by the Realtor?
5bed/4.75bath; 4958 sqft, 9147 sqft-lot; 2 story, finished basement, attached garage, no parcel #; last sold 9/3/09: $1.42 Mil.
Of course the property is the same especially as the last sold date and price match. As to the other discrepancies; I wouldn't trust either without checking it out. Possibly one bedroom in the finished basement? Possibly the Realtor just multiplied two numbers to get the lot size instead of checking the county records? If I had to guess, I would say, 4bed/4.75bath; 4950 sqft, 8975 sqft lot.
- Pasadenan
- Contributions:21424
I'm sure SunnyView remembers "Too Big to Fail", also known as "Alpine". His home was the first one I saw regarding "hidden data" and "multiple entries", and it took me much effort to figure out what was going on, and where his property was really located. Now it is almost second nature to find the correct location and the public records data; just takes a few minutes.
- Pasadenan
- Contributions:21424
"or they can accomplish the same result by modifying entry with fake address information" -
Most of the cases I've seen is something like calling it a "Rd", rather than a "St", or changing one vowel in the street name spelling, or spelling out "court" instead of "ct". I would "guess" that at least 50% of these are just carelessness judging by the number of Realtors that post they have duplicate entries and want to know how to get rid of the extras, and Realtors that post they typed the address wrong and want to know how to fix it without re-inputting everything again (which they can't do, as the "address" creates the entry, and Zillow has no address edit method beside create a new record, and delete the old one).
Now if Zillow typed a street name incorrectly, I believe they can do a global change for that without affecting the ZPID number, but otherwise, a change of address becomes a change of ZPID.
Most of the cases I've seen is something like calling it a "Rd", rather than a "St", or changing one vowel in the street name spelling, or spelling out "court" instead of "ct". I would "guess" that at least 50% of these are just carelessness judging by the number of Realtors that post they have duplicate entries and want to know how to get rid of the extras, and Realtors that post they typed the address wrong and want to know how to fix it without re-inputting everything again (which they can't do, as the "address" creates the entry, and Zillow has no address edit method beside create a new record, and delete the old one).
Now if Zillow typed a street name incorrectly, I believe they can do a global change for that without affecting the ZPID number, but otherwise, a change of address becomes a change of ZPID.
- Pasadenan
- Contributions:21424
And why don't I get any positive votes for giving the links to the Z-estimate info that was being looked for?
- Pasadenan
- Contributions:21424
"I'm still trying to figure out what the motivation is for intentionally distorting the address." -
When an agent listed the property across the street from me, they printed all the flyers with the wrong address; so far off that it would be in a different zip code; but worse, the street isn't long enough for that address to exist.
I pointed it out to the Realtor 3 times. It never got corrected until after offers were made and in process. It was obvious; they didn't want people looking up the comps; they wanted to imply a more expensive neighborhood and zip code, they simply didn't know the area as they were centered in a neighboring city, and they didn't want people looking up other neighborhood statistics.
Of course it would all be realized at the time of an appraisal anyway, but they were looking to find buyers that didn't know the area that might have "red-lined" the specific location due to prejudice and outdated info.
Was it intentional? They would tell you no, but my opinion is they will do anything necessary to get it sold faster at a higher price.
Was the present case intentional? No; it is just an idiosyncrasy of Zillow's filing system.
When an agent listed the property across the street from me, they printed all the flyers with the wrong address; so far off that it would be in a different zip code; but worse, the street isn't long enough for that address to exist.
I pointed it out to the Realtor 3 times. It never got corrected until after offers were made and in process. It was obvious; they didn't want people looking up the comps; they wanted to imply a more expensive neighborhood and zip code, they simply didn't know the area as they were centered in a neighboring city, and they didn't want people looking up other neighborhood statistics.
Of course it would all be realized at the time of an appraisal anyway, but they were looking to find buyers that didn't know the area that might have "red-lined" the specific location due to prejudice and outdated info.
Was it intentional? They would tell you no, but my opinion is they will do anything necessary to get it sold faster at a higher price.
Was the present case intentional? No; it is just an idiosyncrasy of Zillow's filing system.
- Pasadenan
- Contributions:21424
In this case, it wasn't the Realtor's fault. In most cities and counties, when you replace a structure with a new structure, the county assigns a new address, so that it doesn't get confused with the previous structure. The Realtor had no choice but to list it with the new address. (Of course they could have corrected the map location, but they were lazy).
And counties file by Tax parcel identification number, which is entirely different than the property address...
BUT, Zillow doesn't use the Tax parcel number as no one remembers that, and it is not convenient for the searches the way people would use it, and access to the tax ID can compromise other security. SO, Zillow uses the street address for look up, and a Zillow Property Identification number (ZPID) for filing and reference. Since all the look up is by street address, Zillow set up the system so that an address cannot be edited, but that a new record must be created. And of course they won't allow deletion of the records with the county record data.
SO, 664 remains, even though the address is now 658.
You are not going to get around this problem in the near future; but if you known how the system works, you just do what I did; find the nearby addresses on the map, and see what they are, and use the aerial views to help narrow it down.
They can't "hide" anything if you know where it is hidden and how to access it.
(Besides, I've posted more extreme measures for "hiding" the properties and info when someone asked, and I got reprimanded by Zillow staff for doing so. As Zillow stated, they don't want to encourage gaming the system even though there are known major loop holes that they don't know how to close).
And counties file by Tax parcel identification number, which is entirely different than the property address...
BUT, Zillow doesn't use the Tax parcel number as no one remembers that, and it is not convenient for the searches the way people would use it, and access to the tax ID can compromise other security. SO, Zillow uses the street address for look up, and a Zillow Property Identification number (ZPID) for filing and reference. Since all the look up is by street address, Zillow set up the system so that an address cannot be edited, but that a new record must be created. And of course they won't allow deletion of the records with the county record data.
SO, 664 remains, even though the address is now 658.
You are not going to get around this problem in the near future; but if you known how the system works, you just do what I did; find the nearby addresses on the map, and see what they are, and use the aerial views to help narrow it down.
They can't "hide" anything if you know where it is hidden and how to access it.
(Besides, I've posted more extreme measures for "hiding" the properties and info when someone asked, and I got reprimanded by Zillow staff for doing so. As Zillow stated, they don't want to encourage gaming the system even though there are known major loop holes that they don't know how to close).
- Tonya Brobeck, "Tonya Brobeck"
- Contributions:637
I too totally agree and well put Robertop!
how come zillow continues to give agents the ability to hide "Zestimates & Charts"
Stating a discriminatory preference in an advertisement for housing is illegal. If you think this content is discriminatory or otherwise inappropriate and feel it should be removed from Zillow, please let us know by completing the information above.
We will review this content. Thanks for helping make the site more useful to everyone. To learn more, read Zillow's Good Neighbor Policy.