Foreclosure Fighting Words: ‘Produce the Note’
By: Diane Tuman, Zillow Content Manager | June 24, 2008
Here’s an interesting tactic that Chris Hoyer, an attorney who advises consumers about foreclosure on Consumer Warning Network, is suggesting: tell the banks to “produce the note.”
What this means is that if you are in foreclosure trouble, and the bank or lending company threatens to take your home, you can buy some time and possibly renegotiate a new mortgage (without tacked-on fees) if you ask the bank to “produce the note.” Evidently, in a large number of cases, banks are having a tough time producing the promissory note since mortgages are packaged up, sold, bundled again, and re-sold and the original promissory note gets lost in the process.
In this CNNMoney video titled, “New Way to Fight Foreclosure,” reporter Greg Hunter has a clip with Hoyer’s mantra, plus a snippet by University of Iowa law professor Katherine Porter who says, “banks fail to attach a copy of the promissory note in 40% of situations” and that 4 out of 10 consumers are being asked to make payments for the mortgage, but the bank didn’t provide evidence to establish what those debts were.
So, if you face foreclosure, don’t abandon your property and move out. All is not lost. Get a lawyer and make sure the bank “produces the note.”
- Stumble it!
- Categories: Mortgages
Comments
162 Comments so far
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Overland Park Real Estate on June 24, 2008 10:11 am
Oh, OK, Foreclosure crisis solved. That was easy. Ignore the mortgage filed at the court house…meaningless. Dont worry that the borrower still cant afford the house….irrelevant.
Sven Goran on June 24, 2008 12:53 pm
The above comment is disturbingly biased. The “produce the note” tactics gives borrowers time and leverage to fight and save their home. What is going on at the moment and what monsters such as Countrywide are doing has to be countered and this is a viable way to do so! Make them “produce the Note”!
consumeradvocate on June 24, 2008 1:01 pm
Overland Park Real Estate misses the point. People were mislead into predatory loans, which is, in many cases, the primary reason for their default. In addition, repeated efforts by borrowers to work out payments for their mortgages are met by a brick wall from the loan servicers. They drag it out and pile on unfair fees and penalties increasing the arrearage to exoribitant amounts by their delay tactics. Then, they try to steal the borrowers home without proof that they own the loan. Yeah, I think they should have to prove they have a right to foreclose. It’s only the law. I guess that doesn’t really matter, does it? At the very least, they owe that borrower an ounce of effort to renegotiate a fair loan. This will work to put pressure on the lenders and servicers, if enough people use this strategy. It’s time for a grass roots effort to fight back against unscrupulous mortgage companies!
Produce the Note - Early Retirement Forums on June 24, 2008 2:10 pm
[...] Produce the Note Interesting tactic: Foreclosure Fighting Words: ‘Produce the Note’ | Zillow® Blog [...]
Overland Park Real Estate on June 24, 2008 10:23 pm
You missed my point. I feel for people who were victims of predatory lending and they should be able to renegotiate a better rate or program if they qualify. My sarcasm was towards CNN who made this seem like some miracle golden ticket to Willy Wonkas factory. A lot of people are buried in their home, how they got to that point can be for a lot of reasons but the fact that they can stay in the house for a couple extra months is not going to help the majority of people in foreclosure keep their home. The few who can renegotiate a better deal yes, but the fact of the matter is that a lot of these interest only programs that went through buried people in their homes and even if the borrow could qualify now with a 6.5% interest rate, they still could not afford the payment now that they would be paying interest and principal.
Responsible Borrower on June 24, 2008 10:26 pm
Hey ConsumerAdvocate: What it’s time for, is a grassroots effort to fight back against unscrupulous borrowers. You signed for it, you’re responsible for your commitment. Oh and by the way: It’s not “…the borrower’s home…”. Until you pay off the note, it’s the bank’s home.
What the banking community should be (and hopefully is) doing is to protect responsible borrowers by compiling a list of every borrower who stiffs them with a tactic like this, or trashes the house before abandoning it, and use that list to screen and blacklist future borrowers. That would protect the lenders, and the responsible borrowers as well.
Rhonda Porter on June 25, 2008 7:29 am
What’s wrong with someone fighting for their home if they have found means to afford it. Maybe the reason they fell behind was they were unemployed for a spell and now they are more secure again. Maybe they’ve taken on a room-mate. If someone can afford their home, they should fight for it. And most important, they should contact their lender and an attorney early on–ignoring a pending foreclosure has guaranteed results.
consumeradvocate on June 26, 2008 8:02 am
Responsible Borrower must be living under a rock. Maybe you’ve missed the fact that lenders and servicers like Ameriquest, Countrywide, Bear Stearns-EMC and so many others have committed out and out fraud in many cases tricking borrowers into these loans. The FBI is investigating and just yesterday the Attorneys General in Illinois and California filed a major suit against Countrywide for these despicable practices. If the lenders and servicers didn’t get so horribly greedy our country wouldn’t be in the mess that we are now. And make no mistake, we’re all in the mess. Just check your property values. It was a corporate culture of greed that drove this meltdown and they did it on the backs of borrowers they mislead. Perhaps, “Responsible Borrower,” you’re one of those fine people who mislead so many into taking a loan they couldn’t afford. Yeah, it’s time to fight back. Angelo Mozillo is still sitting pretty and tan in his mansion. It’s time for the lenders and services to fix the problem they created.
Responsible Borrower on June 26, 2008 8:31 am
Consumer Advocate: Actually I’m a salary man, who’s worked since the age of 12 and doesn’t have anything to do professionally with the banking, lending, mortgage or real estate businesses.
Let the FBI investigate who it will, and more power to ‘em for bringing to justice those in those industries who committed fraud. So long, of course, as the enforcement community also investigates and aggressively brings to justice the borrowers who have committed fraud.
Frankly, I don’t care about either the banking and mortgage industry, or the consumers. What I care about is that their actions don’t hamstring me and my family who’ve played straight over the years in paying our notes.
People are responsible for their own actions, whether you’re a lender or a borrower. So don’t go whining about “consumer fraud”. All of us, as consumers, are responsible for our own due diligence. You signed the note, and now you’re whining about “fraud” and trying to get the lenders or tax payers, or both, to bail you out for your ignorance and/or stupidity.
Maybe the “consumer advocates” and the people they represent are the ones who should be investigated next for fraud.
consumeradvocate on June 26, 2008 10:17 am
Responsible Borrower, there is no point in getting involved in a tit for tat here. There is important information in this post for homeowners who are facing foreclosure. I’m sorry to see that your understanding of the problem is somewhat limited, but so it goes. We are all entitled to our opinion. I wish you the best.
steve on July 19, 2008 4:49 am
Anyone know how this might help if your home was already taken before this information was made available?
Thanks
David Gibbons on July 19, 2008 6:46 pm
Sorry Steve, I don’t; best ask a RE attorney.
Robert Davison on July 30, 2008 11:10 pm
I was told I had a 30 year fixed loan and was completely lied to by my lender. Then 2 years later I get this letter that my tpayment for my tiny 1300 sq ft house here inLas vegas was going from $2,000 pr mo to $2,600 per mo. At that exact time I also lost my job. My loan was transferred twice without my signature or consent. I am going to fight these bastards because their predatory lending practices and greed screwed me and my family. I WILL MAKE THEM PRODUCE THE ORIGIONAL PROMISSORY NOTE. i WILL NOT LEAVE MY HOUSE. PERIOD!!!!
troyusaguy on August 4, 2008 10:09 am
All mortgages that originate from a fraud should be null and viod and home owner keeps the home. When the loan was created-the money was never in existance, it was created out of thin air and no “consideration”. The only value the mortgage provides is the signatures of a borrower willing to be enslaved, there is no money, just a credit issued. Its quite mind boggling, google Jerome Daly, he proved this in a court. Its these corrupt bank practices that are ruining our country and enslaving people through debt.
Make them produce the note and fight them tooth and nail.
Rusty Payton on August 20, 2008 8:24 pm
I am an attorney in Chicago. A Countrywide client only 3 months behind just came to me with a loan modification agreement that CW just sent him (out of the blue without request). CW offered to put the three loan payments on the principal, reduce the rate to 5.5% and extend the term. Oh, and they want him to state that
“…if any document related to the …Note…is lost, misplaced, mistated…..” borrower will waive that fact.
Has anyone else seen this? Is the fear starting to creep in? What should my client do?????
Mark Gaddis on September 18, 2008 8:41 pm
Some of you are missing some very important facts to this tactic. They are only asking for the party that is filiing foreclosure to prove they have the right to foreclose. It is a matter of law and holding the lender to the letter of the law. If you feel sorry for them your feelings of sympathy are misguided.
For once the consumer can have the laws work in their favor and maybe use it as a leverage to get the lender to offer a reinstatement or payback program the consumer CAN afford.
Michael Adams on October 13, 2008 4:05 pm
Responsible Borrower is code for Republican, Ayn Randian, Virtue of Selfhishness, Screw the tired, the poor, the hungry and screw that limp wristed liberal Jesus too, “I don’t’ give a damn about anyone but myself because I’m a superior human being.”
You’re time is over and after the revolution you’ll be lucky if you even get into a low rent re-education camp.
National Audits on October 21, 2008 12:19 am
Rusty, as a condition of loan modification lenders typically ask borrowers to waive their rights and give up all causes of action or statutory defenses that may be available to them. This is why we perform a forensic audit and look for TILA violations before approaching the lender for a modification. More than 80% of the files we audit have actionable TILA violations! This means most people who refinanced within the past three years have a right to rescind the loan and receive a refund of all finance charges and closing costs paid in connection with the loan.
The best way to fight back is by finding technical TILA violations that allow for rescission.
Woman Chains Herself to Her Home | Zillow® Blog on October 28, 2008 3:13 pm
[...] foreclosure? One consumer network says you should ask the bank to “produce the note.” I’m not sure if this will help this woman at this point, but it looks like she is [...]
George Bekaert on October 29, 2008 10:14 am
AFFODABLE HOME LOANS.COM????
I refinanced at the peak in 2007, I cant today qualifiy for the same exact loan, this is another issue that will come about soon. People who want to recast a loan moving to a variable rate will not be able to qualify for the same loan they are in. Lenders have moved their debt to income ratio from around 62% down to 50%. If this doesnt mess up the scenario bad enough the home value has decreased.
So now you will not just have to have a second job but you will have to come to the table with the difference, in my case this would be 50,000 less my house is worth. We had these types of loans for 15 years and nothing went wrong and still nothing has gone wrong with interest only loans as of today. Except for the fact the lenders have been hit with bad times from some forclosing on their homes. So they do what? they make it even harder to get the loan that you will need when your fixed rate term comes due. Now more than ever we need to have a way
to recast our current loans without meeting their belt tightening tactics that will cause even more foreclosures. Personally I think we could stop all this madness by creating a one at a time home loan issued on your social sucurity number financed by the taxpayers with the interest going to the taxpayers in form of relaxing taxes due. Borrow the money from ourselves, and pay the interest back to ourselves. The 7 billion bail out should start the new program. We in america cant afford to be paying 3 and a half times the puchase price for our homes.
we need to loan ourselves the money and offer a 4% fixed rate for 40 years to each social security number.No current qualifing as long as you have a current home loan. This would keep almost every home out of foreclosure. Private lenders cans still keep their business lucrative by reducing overhead and loaning to people with second homes and investment properties,businesses and such. We as ameicans deserve to work and prosper.Get it right you politicians and so called leaders. We want to prosper, not be victims of the economy. Since the inseption of the housing problem we humans have spent enough time equalling money ponering, talking and working on clerical tasks to have paid for all homes in foreclosure today. Work smarter not harder, save humanity and never make housing,health care and jobs an issue. Spend your energy us taxpayes are paying you hansomly to do something right for a change. If lenders and government can pull monies out of thin air we can create these types of loans for all americans and by the way more people will stop renting and start buying with a real loan.
cecelia mitchell 30@yahoo.com on December 20, 2008 11:04 pm
I signed and read a 40 year loan. by the time I got the frist payment it was a 30 year. I tryed to call the loan person no answer then she not there any longer .then they sold my loan to counyrtwide.I payed the loan as it was billed .at that time I could aford it and I really didn’t know I had rights.things have changed and I need to pay the loan I signed .even thought countrywide said it was fruad I had to pay 30 year loan becouse that’s what they bought.How could they buy a 30 year when I didn’t sign one. the papper work they have say 40 year.they have 2 note one for 40 and 30. Deed of trust grant deed and all other say 40. I have not missed a payment yet.I need to pay what I signed .why am I wrong and they are right.
Deed in Lieu of Foreclosure on December 26, 2008 4:07 pm
I would just leave my home and deed it back to the bank.
Gonna-Do-it on January 31, 2009 12:13 pm
I’m going to do it. I have a rental in Nevada that is upside down $500 per month rent to mortgage. Its also $50,000 upside down in its loan to value.
I’ve never been late with a payment. I will start skipping the payments March 1st, and let it go to foreclosure.
Then I’ll demand that the lender produce the note. The loan was sold 4 times in the last 3 years, so its a good bet the note is lost.
The things I still need to learn are, what happens to the recorded lien when the foreclosure is dismissed? How do I remove the lien and get clear title so I’ll be able to sell the property?
With a foreclosure, I can expect my credit score to drop 80 too 100 points.
Zev Y Posner on February 1, 2009 10:16 pm
Wow - interesting stuff - i am wondering if there is a way to take advantage of “produce the note” prior to a foreclosure action?
it would seem to me that if there is no note then there is no legal basis for the lien and no obligation to pay.
and enough with the responsible borrower BS - this has never been a fair fight - if it were the bailout would not be sending the fire trucks to hose down the banks - they would send them to put out the fires in the homes of people! incidentally i am a republican Mr Adams - RL is not code word for a political party affiliation rather it is code for out of touch! and lord knows neither party has got a monopoly on that one!
but back to my question … anyone know where to really study up on this besides the network video clips and could this be used while still paying?
Gonna-Do-it on February 1, 2009 10:26 pm
I researched this topic for 10 hours on Saturday.
This site has a lot of good info:
http://livinglies.wordpress.com/
Dean Mostofi on February 2, 2009 5:45 am
Also visit Foreclosure Combatant for various case law. http://www.loanaudit.wordpress.com
Congresswoman tells foreclosed victims ‘stay in your homes’ | Zillow® Blog on February 2, 2009 2:08 pm
[...] have been seeing an uptick in the blog post “Produce the Note,” which has prompted many comments, among them a link to the Livinglies blog by Neil Garfield, [...]
What to do if you are facing foreclosure in Oregon | Portland Real Estate Guide on February 2, 2009 3:23 pm
[...] am by no means the first to talk about this (see Zillow’s take and Livinglies’s Weblog). If you catch this in an rss feed reader you may miss the video link, so [...]
richardsonccs on February 2, 2009 5:48 pm
Produce the note. Save me with a bailout. Rework the deal that I agreed to because my materialistic ways landed me in a house I couldn’t afford. Let me file bankruptcy to erase the credit card debt I have from my appliance upgrades, new wardrobes, etc. (and let me do it again every 8 years). With each passing generation, accountability becomes an ever more evasive character asset along with meaningful work ethic. Get a clue, suck it up and quit expecting handouts.
Gonna-Do-it on February 2, 2009 7:18 pm
That’s exactly right, richardsonccs. Your point would only be valid if we had real money, instead of fiat tender, Federal Reserve Notes.
They are trash, and deserve no respect. If I can erase my mortgage(s) by demanding the production of the note, then I’ll do it with no qualms whatso ever.
However, if we had gold or silver backed real money, then it would be wrong to erase the debt.
Just Another Debt Slave on February 4, 2009 12:11 am
The contributors on this site with all of their moralizing and ethical gymnastics seem to be wholly unaware of the actual origin of most of this money and the mechanics of our fractional-reserve banking system. When a bank lends money under current rules, they are required to have in their possession only a small fraction of the money they are lending….the rest they create out of thin air. Actually, the borrower creates the money with his/her signature by agreeing to pay. Under current banking rules with loopholes and exceptions many banks are lending as much a twenty times their actual holdings. In other words, you deposit $5000 and the bank is allowed to lend up to $100,000 based on that original deposit. Most of the money the mortgage borrower must pay back never belonged to the bank to begin with. This is the privatized “Federal” Reserve System under which we labor. If we were not making huge monthly debt payments and tax payments on the federal debt, the money supply would grow exponentially, so this perverse system actually tends to maintain some general price stability while stripping everyone of basic freedoms. Unfortunately, when it is out of balance it can also collapse at an exponential rate. For more on this topic see Ellen Brown’s http://www.webofdebt.com. There is another way.
correct answers please on February 14, 2009 2:05 pm
My sister is in foreclosure. She really wants to keep her home. She has had a pay cut and can’t pay as much as she did before.
My questions are these,
If I hire an attorney for her, and they were to use the “produce the note” idea and they can’t produce it, what happens? Is it a modification? Court hearing?
From what I have heard is that if they can’t produce the true original note, that most banks walk away. What then happens?
Welaktim on February 15, 2009 8:04 am
I read almost all the posts, I haven’t seen anyone ask for the money…if these mortgages were bundled and sold, not only do we have the right to “ask to see the original (wet ink) note”, and demand that any money made, be applied to the ballance. Yes I am asking that any profit made be sent to the one who’s signature(mine)created all this money. Isn’t that the way it should be? After all, after the 3 day right to recision, the bank gets it money in full from the FED. Then they go for it all by selling the note too. HMMMM that fair… all from your signature.
Now you just keep quiet and be a good subservient American….
tim on February 16, 2009 5:34 pm
I am still current but things look grim. work fell off the
cliff. interest only and rising. I keep seeing interest
rates at zero but the scumbags at Saxon Mortgage keep
going up. I just sent a certified letter asking for the
real deal note. Told them to send it to a lawyer in my
area if they have it. am waiting. as for anyone defending
banks, they either work for one or “money” ain’t no object.
brassbird
Tony on February 17, 2009 2:34 pm
Great idea. The whole mortgage industry is one giant rip-off. Why, for example, is interest mostly paid in the early years of a mortgage? If you look at how much the interest rate is in the first 5 years of a 30-year mortgage, it’s far far more than the stated rate. So screw the mortgage industry scum. Make them prove that you owe them any money. The bastards were so stupid they lost the paperwork!!!! HAAAAAAA!
Truly Innocent Victim of BORROWERS on February 24, 2009 5:51 am
Cut me a break. Maybe a few - maybe even 10% of the people in trouble were the innocent victims of predatory lenders or lenders who falsified docs, income, etc. The rest of you were greedy and irresponsible and I am the one paying for it. I didn’t buy a home because I couldn’t afford it. I am renting. If I lose my job and get evicted, no one will negotiate a lower rent with my landlord. No one will bail me out. And my savings are gone, thanks to you greedy, irresponsible people. I hate all of you. Screw you. If you really were the victims of predatory lenders, then you were totally stupid and had no business taking on hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt. You have no business entering into complex financial transactions. I repeat - 90% of you are greedy, irresponsible people and I hate you and your Wiis and your PlayStations and your huge-screen TVs and all the other stuff that you now can’t pay for, taking down the banks and destroying truly innocent, responsible people like me. What predatory lender made you overspend on your credit card? I repeat: I hate all of you. I hope you end up on the streets.
Trina on February 24, 2009 6:39 am
When a creditor says that you owe a debt you alwys ask them to prove that you owe the debt. Produce the contract. You don’t help build a case against you. The whole thing is they don’t have the original contract because most likely it’s a third party and you are contracting with that third party with promises to pay or quasi contracts. The third party gets you to contract with them unless you get wise and tell them to prove that you owe and they can’t. When you default on a loan or debt etc, the original party trys to collect and when they can’t it gets written off and sold. I was taken to court for a debt last year and being that I’ve been doing so much research I knew what to do and say when I went to court and I beat the case. It’s not the fact of trying to get over or anythingg like that. The person saying you owe, you really don’t owe.
We need to get into the habit of suing them when they can’t prove it. What’s so crazy is, the courts be down with the scam too. The day that I went to court I just observed everything going on and it was unbelievable. People would walk in the court like robots without asking any questions. They would just say they owed the debt. We tell on ourselves and the court knows this. This is why we are considered incompetent when we walk into a court room.
The next time someone says you owe, make them prove it and communicate with them in writing. Not on the phone. Also, what they do sometimes is keep transfer the debt to another agency so that they can try to collect. What I do now is write letters for people who ar ebeing contacted by third parties. Just keep researching, reading and try some of the stuff you come across becuase it does work as long as you do it correctly.
If anyone is interested in information pertaining to this I can email you some or if you nedd help writing letters.
I hope people facing foreclosure all catch on to this. I try to tell people all the time about makin collectors prove you owe the debt. Some people are afraid to try. I’m so proud of the woman who asked them to produce the note because there a alot of things that people don’t know. Now what she needs to do is do some research on geting her land patent to her home. If you have that you really own your home.
bill on February 24, 2009 6:49 am
What are the basics of sustaining life? We all need food, water, clothing, and shelter. Without these 4 basic needs being met one cannot exist.
Let’s take a look at shelter. Shelter for the vast majority of humans equates to a home. How does one go about gaining shelter / a home? You have a few choices. One can buy a home. One can rent a home. One can inherit a home. One can have Mommy or Daddy pay for the home. Or, one can live in free shelters / homes or any other type of shelter that they can find. If you do not choose the free shelter route then you must make a sensible choice of how to secure a place of shelter and have a plan on how to “PAY” for it. 1200 sq. ft. of living space provides shelter just the same as 4000 sq ft of living space. If you chose an SUV, a boat, an airplane, a beach house, a hunting lodge, a mini Cooper, multiple 4-wheelers, an RV, multiple plasma TV’s, pricey cell phone plans, media rooms, walk-in closets in every room,risky investments, or whatever your heart desires you must still have a plan for keeping yourself and family in a shelter/ home. Once you cross the line and chose to finance all of your toys and put your shelter / home at risk by living above your means (what you can afford) and have no plan for job loss, illness, curbing your spending, etc. you become irresponsible. You must not expect the banks, others of us who have not made such irresponsible decisions, and then the government / the people (your neighbors, friends, co-workers, etc.) to bear the costs of your irresponsibility through higher costs being passed on to them!
Yes, the mortgage industry has some responsibility to tell people “NO”. But the individuals making the decision to purchase what they cannot PAY for have a responsibility to say NO to themselves! What does one think when they buy a home with 100% financing in a real estate market that is soft with home prices falling? What does one think when they make a decision to purchase a home, no matter what the price, with an interest only mortgage or an adjustable rate? Was your plan to ever PAY for this or just sit back and HOPE for the value of the home to go up? What do people think when they take home equity loans to pay for their “toys”? Where was their plan for the other possibility of the value of the home going down. The problem was that they had no plan period! The overwhelming majority of people who buy into home ownership understand that there is a cost above and beyond the asking price of everything that is financed whether it be a home, an automobile, a dress, a TV, etc. Credit is never free! More people need to consider the TRUE COSTS of financing anything. When you put the necessities required to sustain your life at risk through foolish and uneducated decisions because “YOU WANT IT NOW” sooner or later you will “PAY THE PRICE”.
All I can say is GOOD LUCK to those who make irresponsible decisions but you and you alone must live with your decisions. Maybe you need to sell some or all of your toys first. But then again if they are not paid for whose fault is that? It sure as hell isn’t mine or your neighbors now is it…
Truly Innocent Victim of BORROWERS on February 24, 2009 8:29 am
Of course a creditor should have to provide proof of the debt - both its existence (the note) and the current balance due. That’s a simple rule of evidence and if they go to court, they will have to do that. It is legally their burden of proof.
To suggest that the courts are “complicit” because some people come in and acknowledge the debt and don’t demand proof is ridiculous. The courts (judges) aren’t supposed to protect the litigants - either side. The judges are supposed to be neutral. The litigants are supposed to protect themselves, either by hiring a lawyer or becoming knowledgeable. I do often see judges trying to help clueless defendants by asking them questions designed to see if they understand what is going on, and often postponing a case to allow a litigant time to get a lawyer.
The reality is though that most of these people do owe the money, and getting the amount right is almost pointless because they aren’t going to pay any of it. They will either declare bankruptcy or simply not be able to pay. If a creditor catches up with them, and if they have a job, then conceivably their wages could be garnished. However, most states require that the judgments from one state be registered in order for further collections such as garnishments and liens. If the debtor has moved to another state and the creditor hasn’t been able to find them, it is entirely possible that the debtor will simply never pay. In most states, judgments expire after a certain number of years - generally about 12 years - unless the creditor renews it, and most don’t, because if they haven’t been able to collect in that amount of time, they realize that they probably never will. Most of these judgments are in the hands of debt collectors who do eventually give up because they work on a percentage basis, and if they aren’t able to get anything, they don’t waste their time.
There are still people who have morals and some even pay debts AFTER being declared bankrupt and receiving an official discharge. Obviously “Gonna-do-It” above is not one of them. He wants to get out of paying a fair debt that he actually owes, and to hell with the impact on other people, on the economy. And that’s why there is no hope for this country. Because there are so many people like him. Creeps. Greedy, amoral, irresponsible creeps. Makes me sick.
If I owe the money, then I will pay it. Of course I will want to be sure the amount is correct. Then again, I am apparently the only jerk in this country who pays all his taxes. On time. No shady deductions. I just pay the taxes. What an idiot I am.
It takes two to tango. The lenders were irresponsible and greedy and the borrowers were more than happy to dance with them. And as usual, it was us poor, stupid, ugly ones sitting it out who are getting hurt.
ms kre on February 24, 2009 11:33 am
try being stuck in an arm loan and not legally divorced!!!…morgtage goes up, husband moves out and stops paying his half….and refuses to sign a quit claim deed!…thank got for this option…..buys me some time to get the divorce final so I can refinance!
Tony on February 24, 2009 11:57 am
@ Truly Innocent Victim,
What a crappy attitude. You think I wanted to be in a position of scraping by each month on a mortgage? My wife and I WERE in an apartment. Paying the same as a mortgage payment. So, with things going well a few years ago. Why wouldn’t I want to own? Fast forward to last year when not by my choice I got laid off. Still in the same house that WAS able to afford with no issues. Now, with just my wife’s salary and the lack of my $90K salary. We find ourselves in this position.
Oh wait you might say. “They bought to much house” Uhhh, no. We bought an 1800sq ft. house for $145K. Not some $350K home we knew we couldn’t afford from the get go.
So, what about the people that did do things right? That have played by the rules and the game has changed on them, due to no fault of their own.
Wait, have I called the lender to ask for the load to be modified so we can continue to be here and make payments that are lower. YES, answer…You have to be in default before a modification can be started. HUH? I was calling them to work something out NOW, not after the fact.
So, in your great wisdom what should myself and others in my position do oh wise one? Please enlighten me as to how we choose to buy a home that was way out of our means from the word go. Rent or own, the monthly payment would have been the same roughly, a few dollars here and there for difference.
Will I look for the country and yes, YOU to help me save my home and keep a roof over my two young sons heads. Yes, while your complaining about YOUR money going out to help me. Mine went out to help others in one way or another. Now I’m asking to be helped so in the long run. I can not add to the problem, but contribute to the rescue of others.
Truly Innocent Victim of BORROWERS on February 24, 2009 2:15 pm
Tony - Wht did you think the A in ARM stood for? Adjustable. The rate would adjust. Duh. It could go up and it would go up. Oh so you thought the value of your home would always go up and so you could always refi? Where were you in the 1990s, when the exact same thing happened with the saving and loan crisis?
But I have NO problem with your refinancing or getting a loan modification. What I have is a problem with these people who think they shouldn’t have to pay at all, either because they were “defrauded” or “taken advantage of” or because someone can’t find the freaking note. That isn’t you. You are not saying you don’t want to re-pay at all. You are saying you want a loan mod, and that’s totally reasonable.
Maybe you should have READ my message before you replied.
Truly Innocent Victim of BORROWERS on February 24, 2009 2:40 pm
Ms Kre - your problem isn’t predatory lenders or greedy lenders or anything else. Your problem is an irresponsible spouse. That would be a problem with or without an ARM, but the point is that it isn’t MY PROBLEM. I am not obligated to solve the problems of the entire world. Life sucks. People get divorced, spouses die. It could happen to me, and if it did, I wouldn’t look to YOU to fix my life for me. After I ran through the 18 months of living expenses that I worked TWO JOBS TO SAVE UP and the life insurance that we paid for, I would have to live in a much cheaper apartment and give up the few things I can give up, such as cable (basic cable) TV, the newspaper. I would have to hope to hell that my old car with 117,000 miles wouldn’t die, and when it does, I won’t come to you to ask you for money to get a new car. Or anything else. You are not obligated to solve my problems and I am not obligated to solve yours.
Do I feel sorry for you? Hell yes. Do I hope things work out for you? Hell yes. But do I consider it my obligation to fix your problems. Hell no.
No one is guaranteed a perfect life without problems. Not you, not me. And no one is guaranteed that other people will be obligated to fix your problems for you.
Tony on February 24, 2009 3:29 pm
@ Truly Innocent Victim
Just for clarification sake. I was on an ARM, then refied into a 30 year fixed before the ARM switched. I took some equity in my home and paid off personal debt.
Yes, your right. I’m not saying I dont want to pay. In fact I have many more plans and upgrades for my home. What I’m saying is that it’s frustrating when you try and work with the lender, yet they dont want to work with you.
DebtFree on February 24, 2009 3:36 pm
RE: “We bought an 1800sq ft. house for $145K.”
With 20% down, that means you’re financing $116,000 and with a 30-year fixed mortgage with a 5.5% interest rate your mortgage payment would be only $658.
You made $90,000 per year and are losing a house over a $658 monthly mortgage payment? Doesn’t make any sense.
Did you have cash reserves (savings) when buying? Did you put 0% down? Did you choose toxic financing such as an ARM?
One who can’t swing a $658 mortgage payment should be living at home with parents.
Jennine on February 24, 2009 4:23 pm
My goodness, so much anger and lack of empathy.
A dear loved one of mine found out on Christmas Eve that she has a terminal brain tumor and mere months to live.
My own family is facing foreclosure because my husband lost his job. We can’t afford our home. It’s no one’s fault that my husband lost $80k of income. We aren’t looking for a bailout or to be rescued. We don’t even expect Obama to fill our gas tanks.
Life deals unexpected blows but thank God we have the perspective that things could be worse. We will recover. My mother-in-law won’t.
Walk a mile in someone else’s shoes before you criticize and condemn.
Counselor on February 24, 2009 4:46 pm
It is unfortunate that the mortgage crisis is affecting honest homeowners who fell on hard times at no fault of their own. The thing is, those owners are few and far between. The vast majority of owners in foreclosure were irresponsible, which is why there is such backlash from responsible people not in foreclosure who are not sympathetic or willing to help.
Most people used their home equity to live beyond their means, by using the overinflated equity to pay off personal debts and credit cards, buy “toys”, take lavish trips or otherwise live beyond their means. Now those borrowers cannot afford the debt and look to taxpayers via our generous government to bail them out and keep them from losing their house.
The other people asking for help to keep their homes are those who signed up for subprime loans and lied about their income on the application. Those borrowers will tell you “its not my fault” and the “lender” wrote in the income amount. But let’s face the truth, when a borrower signs a loan application knowing it contains material false information and accepts the loan, that is perjury, a crime. Why should those borrowers be given help to keep their home?
Next, you have all those speculators who bought homes and flipped them for a quick profit. Those asking for help are now holding homes purchased at overinflated prices and not only risk losing all of those “investment homes” but their own homes. Why should taxpayers bail them out?
Like I said, honest responsible homeowners who are facing foreclosure are few and far between. They should be helped but the problem in the industry is identifying who were the honest responsible borrowers who fell on hard times from the rest of the borrowers who speculated, committed fraud, or used their home as a piggy bank for out of control spending.
While the “produce the note” strategy might delay foreclosure, it could also work against the owner in foreclosure. It I understand President Obama’s proposal for helping homeowners, it is not intended to help the speculators and possible those who lied on their applications. If the court delays the foreclosure until the original note is produced, and more than likely can be because on some electronic media, and it turns out the borrower lied on that note, don’t expect to get any help. How can the bank (or government) know you lied? Simple, they look at your stated income on the loan documents and require you provide copies of your tax return at the time of the loan and if they don’t match, they you’ve lied.
Most of those borrowers who lied did not do so in a subtle way either. In a recent court filing in Seattle WA, some taxi driver earning $20k/yr was pre-qualified for a $1.5M condo mortgage. The driver claimed the lender lied about his income yet he still signed the application and handed over $75k in earnest money that he also borrowed. While the taxi driver never got the $1.5M loan, he lost his $75k earnest money, which he is now suing the lender and developer to get back. If that taxi driver got the loan and went into foreclosure, should he be bailed out by the taxpayers? If he used the “produce the note” strategy, he would be caught having committed a crime by lying about his income. Should the taxpayers bail him out? Last I remember, crime is not supposed to pay.
Truly Innocent Victim of BORROWERS on February 24, 2009 5:16 pm
A. My father is dying of cancer so I am walking in those shoes.
B. Tony - I do think it sucks that the banks are being jerks about this, though in lots of cases, the investors are the problems, not the banks. There’s plenty of blame to go around. I wish for you that you’d been as totally paranoid as I was. I worked two jobs for years so I could save not 3, not 6, not 12, but 18 months of living expenses. I lived with used/old furniture, my living room has nothing in it but a used sofa we bought at an estate sale for $400. We have one old car - a basic boring Honda with 117,000 miles. My mantra is much like my father’s - “we don’t need it, we can’t afford it.” We qualified for a 30-yr fixed in October but I couldn’t deal with the idea of being up to my ass in debt and not having a dime to spare after paying the mortgage, so we decided not to buy. Not a day goes by that we don’t thank heavens that we made that decision, or we’d be facing foreclosure, too.
I know with two kids, it is much more difficult to save and you obviously don’t want to work two jobs because you want to spend time with your kids, and you should.
But I am hoping you had some savings, and that between the savings and unemployment insurance, perhaps some help from your families (pride has to be set aside sometimes) maybe you can keep the house until you can find another job.
C. Jennine - I am not walking in your shoes because - see B. I knew this had to happen. The prices here are insane and I’d watched the crash in the 1990s S&L crisis. I knew this was coming. So I am very glad I’m not in your shoes, but look at it the other way. You own a home, you had equity, you had security. If things work out for you, you will still have that. I don’t and I won’t. I have no home. I like the house we rent, but it isn’t mine, I have no equity, I have nothing. You might be able to keep your home through a modification or if your husband can find work quickly enough. I lose my job, I am evicted, and there is NOTHING and NO ONE to help renters. And the end of 30 years, you own a home. I own nothing.
Now, my savings are crap because of things I had nothing to do with. I worked my ass off for 30 years, and most of it is gone because of other people.
You bet I’m angry and bitter.
But it IS someone’s fault that your husband and millions of others lost their jobs. The downturn in the economy didn’t happen by itself. It happened because of this mortgage situation …so it came around and some of the people who created this mess are getting nailed and so are people who didn’t create it. I don’t know your situation, and why you can’t afford to keep your home. I don’t know if you and your husband did the kinds of things that got us into this mess, i.e., pulled equity out of the house to buy cars, build swimming pools, put in granite countertops in 50,000 kitchens, etc. or if you are just plain a victim, like me. But it definitely was someone’s fault that your husband lost his job. I can name some of them: Ranieri, Paulson, Fuld, Bush, Cox, Sandler, Mozilo, to name but a few. But also your neighbor and probably more than a few people you count as friends and relatives.
Nancy Engle on February 24, 2009 5:20 pm
Such anger… Lets hope you dont loose your job and need to find another job. People who have worked for companies 25 years have lost jobs. Why are some of you posters being so harsh on other people. Is that the way you want to be treated if you lost your job? I guess thats what “Dog eat Dog world” means..
Truly Innocent Victim of BORROWERS on February 24, 2009 5:30 pm
Yup. I hope that too. My husband’s company just laid off 400 people and we didn’t breathe for six weeks, even though we’d saved enough to get by for 18 months. I won’t know about my job until June.
But how will people treat me? That’s my point, Nancy. They will NOT be asking my landlord to decrease my rent, they will NOT be doing anything for me. Get it?
I’m not angry at people for losing their jobs. I am angry at people who did stuff that caused the economic problems that caused people to lose their jobs. Some of the people who lost their jobs did the stuff that caused this problem, some didn’t. But I’m sick of this “I was defrauded” and “they were predatory” and blame, blame, blame everyone else and then ask everyone else to help you.
Where is your empathy and sympathy going to be when I am old and have no money? Not because I didn’t work hard and plan and save. I did. My money disappeared due to the actions of others. I am going out on a limb here, and guessing that NO ONE, not one of you people who are criticizing me for being angry and harsh, are going to help me or have an ounce of empathy for me.
No, you will be calling for tax cuts so you can have more money and cut government handouts and big government spending, yadayadayada. You won’t give a hoot that I won’t be able to afford rent and food and medical care, because YOUR TAXES ARE TOO HIGH.
NOne on February 24, 2009 5:48 pm
Who’s responsible.
1. Clintons’ administration caused it by forcing banks to relax lending standard to subprime or else they’ll sue. New policy of trying to increase home ownership.
2. Green span lowered rates to woo the mass.
3. Public got greedy and lied just to get a house.
4. Bush failed to oversee the mess. (he didn’t cause it) He only inherited it but failed to correct it.
5. Obama is now making honest people that didn’t lie didn’t cheat to pay and reward the irresponsible lying borrowers and greedy lenders.
Enough?
Truly Innocent Victim of BORROWERS on February 24, 2009 5:51 pm
To Gonna-Do-It - I think (hope) your message was just sarcasm, but to answer your question - you would have to file an action to quiet title. I’m not all that sure you would succeed, however, because there is still evidence of the debt. First off, eventually the original note will surface, but even if it doesn’t, there is still evidence of the debt. It could be a stand-off where the lender (or the purchaser of the loan) can’t provide the evidence needed to foreclose but you can’t claim under oath (without committing perjury) that there is no debt, and you can’t prove that the debt was satisfied without admitting the debt.
I think the whole point of this “produce the note” isn’t to get out of paying the debt altogether - though clearly that is what some amoral people would like - but rather to cause a delay and get some leverage to force a modification.
Mary Alice on February 24, 2009 5:55 pm
Does anyone know if this “produce the note” would apply to commerical property as well?
Truly Innocent Victim of BORROWERS on February 24, 2009 6:09 pm
Presumably, it would. It has been a long time, and I ws never a real property attorney, but I’m thinking that the whole thing is based on the “best evidence” rule - a very old principle in law that says that the original has to be produced in court and that a copy can be used only if the original is no longer available. It is now codified in the Federal Rules of Evidence, but its applicability has been greatly narrowed. For instance, a copy can be admitted if the original has been lost through no fault of the litigant. And a copy can be used unless the person opposing its admission can make a credible claim against its authenticity. Some states no longer have the best evidence rule at all.
I am also guessing that the court in Ohio that threw out the foreclosure cases did so out of ire at the banks and/or because no copies were produced. I am also guessing that the trial court’s ruling would have been overturned by an appellate court.
So this is a delaying tactic, but in most cases, will not ultimately preclude a judgment.
And yes, it would apply to any document, including loan docs for commercial properties.
Just a renter on February 24, 2009 6:24 pm
So I’ve watched the “house of cards” show that has played over and over again on the news station. I’ve read about the bailout, and I’ve listened to the many people talk about being preyed upon by lenders. I have to say I’m not sympathetic. When signing a LEGAL document that says you will owe HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS shouldn’t you read and understand that document??? Anyone who says they did not understand what they were signing, well then you get someone who is on your side to make sure you understand and anyone who says that the loan officer said it will be alright don’t worry about it, are you crazy! Those people are not there to help you they were there to help themselves.
I rent my home, because I haven’t saved up the 20-30% for a downpayment. I do have a new to me car that I’m paying on - but I formulated a budget and reworked it several times before getting the used car - right before the engine blew on my old one. I own used furniture that I buy on craigslist from the many people who have now fallen on hardtimes and need cash to pay for the things they couldn’t afford.
For those who bought their homes and then refinanced I shouldn’t have to bail you out. YOU decided to refinance and upgrade your bathrooms, and kitches. YOU decided that you wanted more, more and more. Why should I who has a steady job, in a market that isn’t going anywhere and if it does I have insurance for that, and who doesn’t even OWN A HOME pay for YOUR mistakes???
Do you have savings? Or did you take alll that refinanced money and spend it on all those THINGS
Tony on February 24, 2009 6:29 pm
@DebtFree
Zero down
ARM
Rate of 6.25
Mortgage was at $1400 roughly at initial purchase
Refinanced to 30 year fixed
Took some equity, paid off personal debt
Mortgage was now $2K
Still no issues paying
HAD well paying job
Got laid off
Hmmm, still have $2K payment and basic expenses
Wife brings in $38K
I was the big paycheck in the house
So, smart ass….now what?
Did I live beyond my means at the time. Nope. I had some to spare. Were some funds put away. Yes, 18 months worth? Nope and kudos for doing so.
Once again, through no fault of my own has placed us in this situation. So, before you run some basic numbers and a rate that you pulled out of your ass. Think before you post again.
Tony on February 24, 2009 6:37 pm
I love how people seem to think that when a home was refinanced that if any equity in that home that was taken was used to splurge on things that weren’t needed. Granted some might have done that but WE ALL didnt do that.
I’m not asking to get off scott free by any means. I want my lender to work with me BEFORE I have to let it go just so they will work with me. Nothing more, nothing less.
Dont you think that me as someone that made good money doesnt feel the same way. Why should I have to pay for others mistakes as well? The collage student that made $28K a year and got sold a $400K home, DUH on both her and the lender.
But, dont lump me or others like me into the same freaken pool.
Produce The Note on February 24, 2009 8:21 pm
Haha, wouldn’t THAT be nice!
Even though it won’t actually solve the real problem, it’s nice to think that some people will have a little more breathing room just in case there’s something that can be done to allow them to stay in their home if not only to have time to pack and make arrangements.
Children may need to change schools, etc.
Ryan Pen on February 24, 2009 11:29 pm
This is a total and complete joke. “Produce the note” is simply a delay tactic and is simply delaying the inevitable for a homeowner who simply can not afford their home. Lender’s do have electronic filing systems of mortgage notes; foreclosure will proceed. It is fraud on the homeowners to suddenly play dumb and say, “Hey this is not my home and I did not sign for it, so prove it.” The bottom line is these people should never have owned homes in the first place and they will never have the opportunity again. It is unfortunate that these people could not take the advantage of homeownership.
TO THE PERSON(S) GIVING THIS ADVICE: It absolutely disgusts me to hear you giving this kind of advice to unaccountable homeowners who took out loans (cashing out their equity) that they cannot afford to pay back. If the borrower is technically not the right homeowner than why have they been in the home and making mortgage payments?? It is a disgrace that these breeds feel entitled to help when they are a victim of there own greed in a lot of cases. “GREAT ENCOURAGEMENT”
LASTLY, there are homeowners that do deserve a loan modifications (restructuring of the loan terms). Of course you do need to fit into the lender’s qualifications (investor guidelines). Meaning: YOU DO NEED A JOB! The reasoning behind this is simple, would you loan a friend a large some of money if they have no job security? We all know the answer to that. Keep in mind, lender’s usually will not set a foreclosure sale date until 6-8 months + of delinquency. I’m sure anyone healthy can find a job by then.
THESE BREEDS: It is better that you focus there attention on moving forward. Losing your home does not mean that it is the end of the world, you can become a renter!
Nancy Engle on February 24, 2009 11:41 pm
To Truly Innocent Victim of BORROWERS
I am a business owner, I owned my home for 10 years. Business had slowed down so much last year that I sold my home and now rent it..I was making more than enough to pay my mortgage and household bills with one weeks pay before the economy nose dived. I also had some unforseen financial obsticals that wiped out my savings.
No, I do not believe everyone was defrauded either. And I do hope that if you are unable to pay your rent due to the economy there will have a provision in place, an emergency housing plan etc… Where people could live until they are back on their feet. We are only as strong as our weakest links, all people who need help right now should get the help they need. I am glad they are extending unemployment and food stamps temporarily until the economy straightens out and I hope no one falls through the cracks.
The economy will straighten out and new jobs are being created and existing jobs will be saved. I believe we will all be out of this mess soon.
Yes, I care very much what happens to you I have more than an ounce of empathy for you and everyone else in the same situation. We will all come out of this, this country has been in depressions before and so have a lot of other countries.
lester on February 25, 2009 12:00 am
I have a question. They say “produce the note” can stop a lender from foreclosing on your home. Is this limited to cases where the lender has not yet obtained a sale date or can “produce the note” stop the lenders even if there is already a sale date?
For example, i only have 20 days before my house is foreclosed, because i have a sale date. Can produce the note stop the foreclosure? Please, i have looked at different sites, and i can,t seem to find the answer.
Nancy Engle on February 25, 2009 12:02 am
Everyone on here who is attacking people saying they never should have been approved for loans so their homes should be foreclosed on….
Do you realize that when a home in your neighborhood is foreclosed, YOUR property value goes down?
There were tons of other equasions that led up to the home crises and recession.. Lots of big WallStreet theives, Bankers and tons of other factors led to this recession.. I think its very counter productive to “beat up” on people being foreclosed. Property values went up to rediculous high value over night in Fl. Im guessing other places too. There are tons of things that bought this on, not just people buying houses. The housing crises should have been addressed at least a year ago, some problems may have been averted but not all.. We need to help eachother not attack eachother, we are all in this together.. We are stressed out and maybe taking it out on eachother, that happens but lets not harden our hearts to the point of cruelty.. and lets not forget what happened to the bail out money the government gave out and how the big businesses abused our tax dollars. Attacking eachother is not the answer, I am sure of that.
Ryan Pen on February 25, 2009 12:03 am
**Please remember Real Estate is an investment. INVESTMENTS = RISK**
Truly Innocent Victim of BORROWERS on February 25, 2009 5:10 am
*I* am not in this together. *I* didn’t do one damned thing to cause this. And again, I have no problem with people wanting to work out their debt and eventually pay it all. I have a HUGE problem with people who want to get out of paying because the original note can’t be found or for any other reason. I have a HUGE problem with people who want 20% knocked off the total price. Damn. Why didn’t I buy, default, and get a retroactive 20% price break at someone else’s expense? If you really can’t pay because you lost your job, and plan to eventually pay it off, great. I have no beef with you. If you are trying to get out of paying it - all of it, then I have a huge problem with you.
If the property was overpriced…well…no one forced you to buy it. I was fully qualified for a 30-yr fixed at a good rate and didn’t buy because even though the house was a good price for the neighborhood, the monthly payments would have been too much of our take-home pay, and it was really obvious that even at that price, it was overpriced. So had I purchased it, that would have been my own bad deal, and I wouldn’t expect someone to knock 20% off the total price retroactively.
And the property value of MY home doesn’t go down, because I didn’t buy, because I knew I couldn’t afford it. Do I benefit from the lower house prices now (i.e., could I afford to buy now)? No, because prices here haven’t come down very much. They are still out of reach, just less so.
I appreciate the guy who said he does have empathy for me. I just hope lots of people have that empathy and are willing to support me when I am old and don’t have any money. Time will tell. I’m not hopeful. I don’t think there will be anyone there to help me. My husband and I have actually discussed our potential choices - living in poverty, without health care OR ending our own lives. How do you think that feels?
If every single person who is getting bailed out would commit in writing to “re-paying” those of us who are being forced to help them now, then my heart wouldn’t be hardened. But I am 99.9% sure they won’t be around for me when that time comes. And then they’d probably be whining “produce the note.”
Tony on February 25, 2009 5:13 am
@ Ryan Pen,
The last part of your comment is idiotic! Think of this. Your in your home. You need a modification. You had a job that made you the income to qualify in the first place. Job is now gone, your asking to modify the payments to something that can NOW be affordable due to the loss of the income you ONCE HAD. Now, due to the income loss some bills had to slide. Hmmm, keep food on the table, the mortgage paid what you can etc. So some others had to slide and be late. This now effects your FICO score bringing it down.
So, you call the mortgage company. Ask for a modification to lower down the mortgage so it would be easier for you to meet and maybe, just maybe be able to catch up on the other stuff that had to slide. In some cases you have to re-qualify for a new loan. Hmmm, how the hell is that going to happen with the scenario I just described? You just need the payments to be lower so it makes it easier for you to get back on your feet.
If you have a job then great! But, dont piss on me for not having one. Oh yea. At the current payment there is a number I have to meet every month, just for the mortgage. Take a position at half the salary I used to have if offered? Sure I would, but keeping the payment the same, the 50% less salary doesn’t meet it anyways. Reduce the payment and then it’s once again possible and people in my situation don’t get foreclosed on.
I’m NOT asking for a hand out. I’m NOT saying I wont pay the note. I’m wanting my company to work with me to make it affordable for me to pay them. This would help, me, them and well..apparently not you.
eddie on February 25, 2009 8:37 am
With all this talk about helping the homeowner, how come no one is coming forward to help those of us who are in danger of getting their cars repossessed due to falling behind?
James on February 25, 2009 8:58 am
Since student loans were repacked, bundled, and resold,does produce the note work with student loans?
DebtFree on February 25, 2009 9:23 am
Tony writes of his mortgage:
“Zero down ARM Rate of 6.25 Took some equity, paid off personal debt… Did I live beyond my means at the time. Nope.”
Simply stunning. You ABSOLUTELY lived beyond your means. Read what you’ve written again.
“Once again, through no fault of my own”
It’s absolutely your own fault. Read what you’ve written. Who chose an exotic mortgage? Who chose to run up personal debt?
As mentioned, with a 20% downpayment and a 30-year fixed mortgage your monthly payment would have been $658. Instead, you chose an exotic mortgage that made your payment over 3X that.
Additionally, part of the due diligence required to buy a home is asking oneself: “What happens if I become unemployed?”
Gonna-Do-it on February 25, 2009 9:35 am
I’ve got 4 houses and 7 sub-prime mortgages. I took a job as a loan officer for 6 months to learn how to fill out the loan appilcations and to know what will work and what doesn’t.
I just researched the “produce the Note” option for Nevada, and its almost impossible to make it work there. The judges are all pro-business & screw the little guy.
My 1st loan on the worst investment is a 5-yr ARM that resets in Nov ‘10.
I’ll never qualify for a mod or re-fi with the reduction in my business, because of the meltdown. So my only option is to discover the best “soft landing” possible for these circumstances, and do whatever it takes to keep as much as possible in the enevitable bankruptcy or foreclosure.
I’ve got a year and 9 months to plan for it. The best hope of course is that home values rise to the point where I can afford to sell that house, even if I need to push $20K accros the table to close the deal.
If home values do not rise enough, then its near certain I’ll go bankrupt in late ‘10 or early ‘11.
Truly Innocent Victim of BORROWERS on February 25, 2009 9:54 am
As to the question about student loans - IF my supposition about the reason this “produce the note” thing actually works in some states being the best evidence rule, then yes - it would work for any kind of debt for which there was documentary evidence of the debt (under the law in most states, there are some kinds of contracts that do not have to be in writing to be enforceable, but it is still ridiculous to enter into any kind of contract without documentary evidence). IF that is not the reason this is happening, then I don’t know the answer.
Note, however, that student loans are not dischargeable in bankruptcy.
And again, you have a legal and moral obligation to pay even if the original signed loan documents can’t be located. Do you really think you should get off scott-free just because a piece of paper was lost? Are you going to commit perjury and lie on the stand, saying you do NOT owe anything? There is plenty of other evidence of your debt besides that original piece of paper.
Also remember that this is a gambit to delay certain legal proceedings. In my experience, student loan processors are (or were - who knows these days) very different from mortgage lenders/servicers/investors. They were always willing to discuss modification of payment terms. That may very well have changed now.
Gonna-do-it - you make NO sense. You tell us you ARE in the real estate business. This isn’t your home you are talking about.And then you complain because the judges are pro-business. But in any case, produce the note is NOT an excuse not to pay what you owe. It is just a tactic to delay and if a court finds that there is other sufficient evidence of the debt (e.g., why have you been paying it all along if you didn’t owe it? what other documentary evidence is there besides the original note? is there a copy?) then they SHOULD enter a judgment against you.
Is it your view that a judge should let you out of a debt you actually owe because the original promissory note with your signature is missing?
Of all the people here, you are exactly the kind of person that people are angry with. You deliberately went out and figured out how you could game the system. You took a big risk and lost. What you did was really what everyone in Nevada does - roll the dice.
The American taxpayer should NOT be bailing out people like you and as I understand it, the bail out plan is NOT going to apply to people like you.
Gonna-Do-it on February 25, 2009 10:08 am
I should have said Nevada judges are pro-BigBusiness. sorry.
Yup, I gamed the system, just like the lenders, the loan bundlers, and the dirivative investors. So what?
Morals cannot apply to an immoral monetary system, like the Federal Reserve.
I’m a small-time investor in rental homes, as an aside to my normal business.
In Nevada, they do non-judicial foreclosures, so they usually never go to a court. Also, in Nevada, a copy of the original loan docs is as good as then original, so the PtN strategy just isn’t a-gonna work.
The best thing I can do is stop paying the payments, keep the rental money, and delay, delay, delay, so I can forestall the foreclosure for as many months as possible.
I ran across an interesting delay idea yesterday. Two weeks before the FC sale date, assign the Grant Deed to someone else. Then the courts will take 3 months to sort out that tangle. Then two weeks before the next FC sale date, your friend assigns the Grant Deed to another party. Again, another 3-month delay is created. You may be able to dely the FC for a year with this one.
Of course, the lender doesn’t really want the property, it wants the money. The renter wants to stay in the house and not be tossed in the street, and everyone wants the home maintained and occupied. So this is a acctually relatively moral acceptable plan that keeps everyone happy, in the short-term.
Tony on February 25, 2009 10:16 am
@DebtFree
Get off my ass! I’m NOT asking to get out of it at all. Read that yourself AGAIN.
At the time, 4 years ago. The ARM was easy to get into without the need for the 20% down. Yes, I went that route. Knowing full and well that I would refi a year later to a fixed 30 year and cruise along.
Now I suppose I should kiss your ass as your apparently DEBTFREE, good for you.
When my wife and I purchased our home. I had been working for the company for some time. There were tons of projects and yes, it seemed as if things would continue to stay as they were.
As with most people that get a better position and more income. You might go out to dinner once or twice more then you did. You might pick up something you have wanted within reason. Why not? You go out every day and work for it. Why can’t you treat yourself? Some people didn’t. Some people horded their funds and that was great for them.
At the time. I wasn’t going out and buying a new BMW even though I could afford it. I bought a used car at the time to replace a failing one.
When you feel secure you do take some risks. We all do in one way or another. You included at some point in your life. Dont throw rocks….
Now that I dont have a position paying me the salary I once had. All that I am asking is for the mortgage company to work with me. Thats it. What is so FRAKING hard to understand about that?
Did I once say that I refused or wasn’t going to pay? NO READ THE POSTS AGAIN!
So, why are you spouting off anyways? By me still paying even something that has been modified doesn’t effect your personal bubble of DEBT FREE.
So, you feel I did wrong. FRAK YOU! You want to continue this conversation then I will by all means give you every resource that you might need to contact me to do so.
Truly Innocent Victim of BORROWERS on February 25, 2009 10:19 am
Do you evict your tenants when they can’t pay? Or are you some good-hearted individual who says “oh never mind, go ahead and live here for free?” I think we know the answer to that.
You are right - morals don’t apply to monetary systems. They apply to people. And you’ve got NONE.
Laws apply to systems/institutions and when those laws fail, or the people who are paid to implement those laws fail, immoral creeps are free to do whatever they want.
You’d better warn the tenants about what is happening, or they’ll be tossed out without any ability to find another place quickly. But based on what you’ve said already, I doubt you have any scruples.
Now you are talking about fraudulent conveyances. You really have no morals, no scruples, no conscience. There should be a lending black-list for dishonest people like you, so no one every makes you a loan again. Since these are nonjudicial foreclosures, it sounds as though they won’t file suit against you for the remaining debt. That sucks. For people like you, then, they should reinstitute debtors’ prison.
Styro2000 on February 25, 2009 10:24 am
I am hearing a lot of the typical, liberal, “why isn’t anyone helping me out of my mess” comments. If you have lost your job, you expect your contractual obligation to your bank to be negotiated in your favor? REALLY, GET A CLUE! Maybe your car co should just give you the car and the grocery store should offer you free food. Don’t wory, those of us working will pay for it all through higher taxes. If you had knowledge that your loan was an adjustable rate(ARM), but did not do your due diligence to to read the paperwork and calculate your adjusted payment to make sure you could afford it before signing…HERE’S YOUR SIGN! I feel for those that were misled into risky, conveluted loans (such as MTA’s). As for the rest of you, being lazy and/or just not that bright, is not a reason for you to be “saved” by the govt or your bank. The people of this country needs to start taking accountability for the choices you make. I put $50k down on my house that i bought 2 yrs ago. I am now slightly over equity. You don’t hear me crying because I had a long term plan and I entered into a loan that i new I could afford for the long haul. Those who fail to plan can plan to fail.
Gonna-Do-it on February 25, 2009 10:34 am
Actually, in Nevada, the lender can, and probably will, go after any shortage to the loan, after FC. That is what makes the bankruptcy inevitable, because they’ll be looking to shear well over $100,000 from me in a civil judgment.
Should I spend the rest of my life in abject poverty, attempting to repay the impossible? No, and that is the exact reason why bankruptcy is possible.
Why don’t you ask this? The lenders took risks. The dirivitave investors took risks. Why am I the focus of your wrath? Those guys created the situation and they get a trillion bux. I get a bankruptcy.
I’m well aware that the Bailout will do nothing for me or the 100,000’s that are small-time RE investors like me. The people who also get screwed for that, are the renters.
If I could figure out a way to sell the home to the renters, that is what I would do. As far as warning them, there is so much time for me to plan this right, I’ll likely have 2 or 3 other sets of renters between now and then, so it ain’t important yet.
Monetary systems are people, silly. People contracting with people. Our government decided we would use fiat currency with no real value, instead of silver and gold money and certificates. I wan’t even born when that happened, so I can only do what I can to be secure.
Tony on February 25, 2009 10:35 am
@Styro2000
Get off your high horse. So you put down $50K I’m proud of you. Have a cookie.
Look at it this way. The company works with me and others like me to keep us in the home and we CONTINUE to pay. It seems as if NO ONE understands that freaking part. We still make the payments, we stay in the home and everyone is happy. Does that effect you and your 50K?
Dont work with me. Stay the course and I’ll have NO CHOICE but to hand it back over. Renting an apartment somewhere. Who looses then? YOU DO!
So, wouldnt it make more sense for the company to work with me and other then against us?
Also, in my case. The ARM was refinanced prior to it adjusting. Now in the case of the investor above. Yeah, he gamed the system. He was trying to hedge a bet and lost. This person is the type of person that has caused issues for people like myself and others.
Stuck in Phoenix on February 25, 2009 10:36 am
My problem? I took out a loan that I could afford (30 year fixed, 5.375 rate, standard loan principal and interest payments). My DTI, with a full PITI payment is 18%. So, I didn’t over-buy at all. But, the house is now worth $170K less than what I bought it for. The $100K in cash that I put down is totally gone, plus an addtional $70K. I owe $255K on a house worth $180K. I can’t qualify for any type of loan modification. I will be punished for paying my bills on time while my neighbors go into forclosure around me. Instead of giving “money” to the banks, how about helping out responsible borrowers? Write off a portion of my mortgage principal. $50K is a drop in the bucket to them, but taking that off my principal would make me much happier.
Nancy Engle on February 25, 2009 10:36 am
Lets just play a sport like baseball and make a couple million a year.. problem solved.
whos gonna pay my rent? on February 25, 2009 10:43 am
@ truly innocent…
after reading all the posts, its obvious that you know your sh!t. it is also apparent that you did your research and made what you felt was the best possible financial decision for you and your family.
the bottomline, it seems, is that a majority did not prepare for the worst and now they/we are paying for it.
i don’t own, i rent. i didn’t get the benz the dealer tried to push because i knew that was above my means (i.e high note, $200 oil changes, etc.)
people have been losing their cars for years without the government bailing them out so why should it be any different for people taking on thousands of dollars of debt for a home they may not be able to afford in a worse case scenario? because ultimately the bailout isn’t really designed to help the people its designed to help the gov’t. JMO
Truly Innocent Victim of BORROWERS on February 25, 2009 10:52 am
Stuck in Phoenix - why do you NEED a loan mod? This is your shelter, not an investment. You’ve got a good loan at a good rate. The value of the house will increase over time.
If I follow your logic, then I should be allowed to pull out of my 403(b) investments, that lost 50% of their value despite my careful research, balancing, matching strategy to my goals, and very conservative investment choices, and someone - you maybe? - should hand me the difference.
OK, that’s a deal. I will hand you the 50k you lost if you hand me all the retirement money I lost. I knew when I invested that the market could go down, and I’m not expecting anyone to give me the money that I lost. You had some misguided idea that despite what we’ve seen in the past, housing prices could never fall, they would only go up. You were misinformed. You should take the time to educate yourself, I guess. But because you didn’t know, or chose not to know, that housing prices could fall, doesn’t mean that I should be handing you 50k when you can afford to pay your mortgage and keep your home.You borrowed the money, you should re-pay it. Period. End of story.
Gonna-Do-it on February 25, 2009 10:56 am
“You borrowed the money, you should re-pay it. Period. End of story.”
You have no concept of what money actually is. Do some research on these words and terms:
money
tender
“legal tender”
“fiat currency”
barter
credit
debt
Truly Innocent Victim of BORROWERS on February 25, 2009 11:06 am
When you look up:
morals
honesty
decency
I am sure that I have a much better understanding of the financial system and all those words than you have of the basic principles of being a decent human being. You strike me as one of those people who thinks they know something, you construct all sorts of BS theories based on inane misunderstandings, and run around spouting off as though any of it makes sense. This country does not need people like you.
Gonna-Do-it on February 25, 2009 11:14 am
Morality (from the Latin moralitas “manner, character, proper behavior”) has three principal meanings.
In its first, descriptive usage, morality means a code of conduct which is held to be authoritative in matters of right and wrong. Morals are created by and define society, philosophy, religion, or individual conscience. An example of the descriptive usage could be “common conceptions of morality have changed significantly over time.”
In its second, normative and universal sense, morality refers to an ideal code of conduct, one which would be espoused in preference to alternatives by all rational people, under specified conditions. In this “prescriptive” sense of morality as opposed to the above described “descriptive” sort of sense, moral value judgments such as “murder is immoral” are made. To deny ‘morality’ in this sense is a position known as moral skepticism, in which the existence of objective moral “truths” is rejected.[1]
In its third usage, ‘morality’ is synonymous with ethics, the systematic philosophical study of the moral domain.[2]
Ethics seeks to address questions such as how a moral outcome can be achieved in a specific situation (applied ethics), how moral values should be determined (normative ethics), what morals people actually abide by (descriptive ethics), what the fundamental nature of ethics or morality is, including whether it has any objective justification (meta-ethics), and how moral capacity or moral agency develops and what its nature is (moral psychology).[3] In applied ethics, for example, the prohibition against taking human life is controversial with respect to capital punishment, abortion and wars of invasion. In normative ethics, a typical question might be whether a lie told for the sake of protecting someone from harm is justified. In meta-ethics, a key issue is the meaning of the terms “right” or “wrong”. Moral realism would hold that there are true moral statements which report objective moral facts, whereas moral anti-realism would hold that morality is derived from any one of the norms prevalent in society (cultural relativism); the edicts of a god (divine command theory); is merely an expression of the speakers’ sentiments (emotivism); an implied imperative (prescriptive); falsely presupposes that there are objective moral facts (error theory). Some thinkers hold that there is no correct definition of right behavior, that morality can only be judged with respect to particular situations, within the standards of particular belief systems and socio-historical contexts. This position, known as moral relativism, often cites empirical evidence from anthropology as evidence to support its claims.[4] The opposite view, that there are universal, eternal moral truths are known as moral absolutism. Moral absolutists might concede that forces of social conformity significantly shape moral decisions, but deny that cultural norms and customs define morally right behavior.
Gonna-Do-it on February 25, 2009 11:19 am
Honesty is the human quality of communicating and acting truthfully, in accordance with a sense of fairness and sincerity. This includes all varieties of communication, both verbal and non-verbal. Honesty implies a lack of deceit. A statement can be strictly true and still be dishonest if the intention of the statement is to deceive its audience. Similarly, a falsehood can be spoken honestly if the speaker actually believes it to be true.
Honesty can be displayed to others, and to oneself (see: self-deception).
Honesty is typically considered virtuous behavior, and has strong positive connotations in most situations. A principal reason for this may be that honesty simplifies communication, in that honest statements can be trusted at face value, not necessarily as true, but as genuinely believed. Additionally, honesty helps to form bonds of trust in human relationships.
Conversely, dishonesty can be defined simply as behavior that is performed with intent to deceive. Lying, lying by omission, fraud, and plagiarism are all examples of this sort of behavior. Other examples can be doing one thing and telling the other, as if you are hiding something.
While there are a great many moral systems, generally speaking, honesty is considered moral and dishonesty is considered immoral. There are several exceptions, such as hedonism, which values honesty only insofar as it improves ones own sense of pleasure, and moral nihilism, which denies the existence of objective morality outright. Additionally, even in moral systems which approve in general of honesty over dishonesty, there are situations in which dishonesty may be preferable. A common example is a “white lie,” a lie which is told in a situation where telling the truth would have served no purpose and would have caused pain. While they are dishonest, the motivation behind the deception is the avoidance of suffering, rather than personal gain or the evasion of responsibility common in many other forms of dishonesty, and so white lies often are viewed, if not as completely moral, then at least less immoral than other types of lies.
Gonna-Do-it on February 25, 2009 11:20 am
Decency is conformity to sociocultural standards of conduct and speech.
Standards of decency vary greatly depending on the cultural context. Most nations have laws against indecency which regulate certain sexual acts, and restrict one’s ability to display certain parts of the body in public (see indecent exposure).
Truly Innocent Victim of BORROWERS on February 25, 2009 11:22 am
Great. You can copy and paste. We are all impressed.
Stuck in Phoenix on February 25, 2009 11:25 am
Umm, never said I couldn’t afford my mortgae payments. I’m just pissed off that so much is being done to help people who did over buy and over extend. Even more pissed off that so many of my neighbors did buy at 100% financing and are forclosing at record high rates. I can’t say that I expected such a dramatic free fall in the housing market. I’ve lost 50% of my home’s value, and there’s no real end in sight. Yes, the market will recover, at some point. Yes, housing is a long term investment. Does that make me feel any better right now? Nope, not at all.
Cry me a river over your lost 403(b). I’ve lost as much as you have from my 401K and IRAs. We all have.
Gonna-Do-it on February 25, 2009 11:26 am
Fiat currency (fiat money) is money that exists because an authority or custom declares it to be such. (From the Latin fiat, which means “let it be done”). Fiat money achieves value because a government has ordered that it can be used to pay debt or buy goods and services and because people trust that the currency will be reasonably stable.[1] Fiat money is a subset of credit money (money backed by promise to pay in goods or services controlled by the creditor) in which a government, often through a central bank or reserve bank, is the major creditor backing the currency.
Historically, societies have relied on monetary systems where currency used in trade was either composed of a physical commodity (such as gold coin—see commodity money) or was exchangeable for a predetermined amount of a named physical commodity, making it a representative money. The represented commodity could be a precious metal such as gold, silver, or copper, although some economies have had money that was redeemable for a fixed amount of other commodity items such as crops, beasts of burden, or food.[2]
Whilst specie-backed representative money entails the legal requirement that the bank of issue redeem it in fixed weights of specie, fiat money’s value is unrelated to any physical quantity at all. Even a coin containing valuable metal may be considered fiat currency if its face value—the value it has in payment of taxes—is higher than its market value as metal. The term also applies to representative money whose face value exceeds the value of the commodity(ies) it represents.
The unifying feature of all fiat money is its (typically exclusive) acceptability to the government for payment of taxes.
Fiat money is not essential for large countries, nor is it always used. An economy may function on credit money which is not fiat money, such as United States paper currency during periods prior to 1862, before the first United States Notes were created and declared by the government to be legal tender.
Gonna-Do-it on February 25, 2009 11:26 am
Legal tender or forced tender is payment that, by law, cannot be refused in settlement of a debt.[1]
Legal tender is variously defined in different jurisdictions. Formally, it is anything which when offered in payment extinguishes the debt. Thus, personal cheques, credit cards, debit cards and similar non-cash methods of payment are not usually legal tender. The law does not relieve the debt until payment is accepted. Coins and notes are usually defined as legal tender. Some jurisdictions may forbid or restrict payment made other than by legal tender. For example, such a law might outlaw the use of foreign coins and bank notes, or require a license to perform financial transactions in a foreign currency.
In some jurisdictions legal tender can be refused as payment if no debt exists prior to the time of payment (where the obligation to pay may arise at the same time as the offer of payment). For example vending machines and transport staff do not have to accept the largest denomination of banknote. Shopkeepers can reject large banknotes — this is covered by the legal concept known as invitation to treat. However, restaurants that do not collect payment until after a meal is served would have to accept that legal tender for the debt incurred in purchasing the meal.
The right, in many jurisdictions, of a trader to refuse to do business with any person means a purchaser cannot demand to make a purchase, and so declaring a legal tender other than for debts would not be effective.
Gonna-Do-it on February 25, 2009 11:27 am
Money is anything that is generally accepted as payment for goods and services and repayment of debts.[1] The main uses of money are as a medium of exchange, a unit of account, and a store of value.[2] Some authors explicitly require money to be a standard of deferred payment.[3] The dominant form of money is currency[counterfactual].[4][5]
The term “price system” is sometimes used to refer to methods using commodity valuation or money accounting systems.
The word “money” is believed to originate from a temple of Hera, located on Capitoline, one of Rome’s seven hills. In the ancient world Hera was often associated with money. The temple of Juno Moneta at Rome was the place where the mint of Ancient Rome was located.[6]. The name “Juno” may derive from the Etruscan goddess Uni (which means “the one”, “unique”, “unit”, “union”, “united”) and “Moneta” either from the Latin word “monere” (remind, warn, or instruct) or the Greek word “moneres” (alone, unique).
whos gonna pay my rent? on February 25, 2009 11:29 am
this thread is on fire its the best most informative thread ever!
Truly Innocent Victim of BORROWERS on February 25, 2009 11:35 am
Stuck - I don’t blame you for being pissed. That’s where I started out, remember? Pissed as hell. What I mind is your asking me to give you 50k.
Gonna-Do-it on February 25, 2009 11:56 am
Is it moral to force everyone to use a fiat currency instead of commodity money?
Is fiat currency “honest money”? You might want to check your Bible to see what is said there about “honest weights and measures”. Is the bible the root basis of yours (and our society’s moral code?
Is decency invoked by conforming to an immoral monetary system?
It is futile to try and give you a moral education, you are so brainwashed by the status quo; you are trapped in their usury paradigm, and there is no escape for you.
Truly Innocent Victim of BORROWERS on February 25, 2009 12:00 pm
Hey bozo - if you don’t like the monetary system, then don’t participate in it. And whatever you think of the monetary system, it isn’t the problem of other people to take carry of morons like you. The argument you are making is “the system is not honest, so I don’t have to be honest” and everyone else can pay the cost. You sound like a two-year old, “He started it…”
Wait for it folks. Here it comes. Any minute now, Gonna is gonna start with the money lenders in the temple and religious slurs.
DebtFree on February 25, 2009 12:04 pm
Tony, what’s annoying about your posts is that you keep saying “through no fault of my own” while YOU chose exotic financing and to run up debt.
Going to restaurants or “picking up something you want” when there’s no money to pay for these things, is the very definition of living beyond one’s means.
True, you’re not asking for a bailout, but you’re also not accepting responsibility for your own decisions.
Truly Innocent Victim of BORROWERS on February 25, 2009 12:11 pm
Maybe it is a question of age as to whether you consider an ARM exotic. When I was growing up there ws no such thing. But they’ve been around a really long time, so people in their 20s, 30s would not think of them as exotic. And the premise made sense - when you first buy a house, money is tight. Having lower payments the first few years could make all the difference. And the presumption is also that for most people (a) their income will rise over that time and (b) the value of the house will increase so they will either be able to pay the higher payment or be able to refinance. And under normal circumstances one or both of those things will happen.
Nonetheless, there is a risk, and given my conservative, cautious nature, I would rather have 30-year fixed than an ARM. But for many people, an ARM made sense and it worked. It is not inherently a bad kind of loan, assuming you really were qualified. You just have to accept that there is some additional risk.
So I don’t know that Tony did anything unreasonable. These are not normal circumstances. Cut him a break. He is trying to pay his debt.
Gonna-Do-it on February 25, 2009 12:15 pm
I mentioned the bible as a root source of our civilization’s morality and law. It was you that are obssesed with those two concepts.
Other root sources include the philosphies of Plato, Socrates, Roman Law, and many others.
I’m not a bible-basher, nor a freak of religion.
I’m a pragmatist. Four years ago I started investing in RE. Now, conditions have changed, and those are now mal-investments.
Rationality demands that I make the best of the present situation, and unfotunately full repayment of those debts is not likely to be possible.
So I’ll continue my studies and embark on the best course of action for myself firstly, and not consider society’s detriment so much as you do.
If I could sell the properties and break even I would. If I could repay the debts, I would. If I had a time machine and could change my past actions, I would.
But I’m a realist. I will do what I can the is best for me. That is the capitalist way, that our society is also based upon. From your posts here, you seem more like a Socialist or Communist.
I don’t think I’ve written anything here that has me crying for a bailout, I’m only seeking a way out.
DebtFree on February 25, 2009 12:16 pm
RE: “I can’t say that I expected such a dramatic free fall in the housing market.”
Was it really so hard to see? Home prices doubling in 4-5 years was normal?
This was a classic mania-driven bubble. In fact, just a few years earlier, there was the dot-com stock bubble, so it’s not as if bubbles and busts were such a far away concept.
I feel for you, and am in a similar situation (have savings and a down payment, etc) but chose not to participate in the housing madness because it was so obviously a bubble.
Truly Innocent Victim of BORROWERS on February 25, 2009 12:35 pm
Doing what is best for you without any regard for others isn’t capitalism. It is greed and immorality. If it was best for you to rob people at gunpoint and kill them if they resisted, so you could get money, that isn’t capitalism.
You don’t have to be a socialist or a communist to be concerned about the impact of your actions on others.
Political and economic systems have nothing to do with this. You just want what you want and to hell with the problems you and people like you cause. Just like polluting companies - it is best for them to do what they do in the cheapest possible way,and to hell with the air and water they poison. You are like the people in China who put melamine into pet food and milk, because it is best for them - they made a buck. To hell with the people and animals who died as a result.
Gonna-Do-it on February 25, 2009 12:46 pm
I saw an opportunity to better my situation via RE. Millions did.
I’m just a single brick in the base of a pyramid, it is those at the top with the culpability.
If you want to blame me and my $675K debt on 4 homes asd the ultimate and sole root cause of this new Depression, I can’t stop you.
Enjoy your fantasy.
Truly Innocent Victim of BORROWERS on February 25, 2009 12:53 pm
You wrote what you wrote, you said what you said, you did what you did. Own it. No one said you were the sole cause of the problems but the only difference between you and the Ranieris, Fulds, Sandlers, and Mozilos of this world, the creeps who wrote the bad loans - is one of scale. They are you, writ large. They were greedy, amoral, irresponsible bastards just like you but they had access to bigger bucks. I have no doubt that if you had access to more fiat money, worthless paper that you were more than happy to take, you’d be on that list, too.
Tony on February 25, 2009 1:53 pm
@DebtDree, AGAIN..
ARM financing to get into the home, Yes. I was paying the same in rent. I just didn’t have the 20% down. “Bad Tony…”
What you think that AT THAT time that I wasn’t able to pay my mortgage? I HAD been paying and having LEFT OVER to do the things I wanted to. …..I’ll wait while you read that again.
Now, if you want to fault me. Then fault me for not putting more away on each paycheck then I did. OK, there is my mistake.
Once again the ARM was for 2 years. It was REFINANCED to a fixed at year 1. No adjustment. So, the fact that you keep bringing up the ARM doesn’t hold water as it isnt what effected me.
Ok, now that my 4 year old son can understand that. Lets recover the fact that after losing a high paying job is when things started to go down hill. Not Before.. Still with me so far?
Ok, you want me to take ownership of my situation? Sure, here it goes dont miss it. I should have saved more back then.
You know the rest and explaining it over to you again even simpler is getting very tiresome.
DebtFree on February 25, 2009 3:46 pm
RE: “I HAD been paying and having LEFT OVER to do the things I wanted to.”
Then why the debt?
RE: “I should have saved more back then.”
Indeed, then why keep stating your problems are “through no fault of my own”?
Tony on February 25, 2009 3:59 pm
Are you seriously trying to say that because I didnt save as much as maybe I should have; thats why I’m where I am now?
TO DO THE THINGS I WANTED TO!
Damn your dense..
Simple, you make more, you spend more. Maybe you dont. Great for you.
Damn, now your just trying to piss me off.
If I had kept my position at the salary I was making, guess watch genius. I wouldn’t have even run across this posting. WOW, what a thought. Oh, wait. Me losing my job because my company laid-off 300 people in IT is my doing?
So, seeing as your such a great oracle of finance. And, we should be bowing to your greatness of being debt free.
Why are you here?
What brought you here in the first place?
Now that you know a great deal about my situation.
WHATS YOURS? I really want to know. I bet if I dug up your ass that somewhere when you got an extra few bucks, you might have treated yourself to something. If not, then why the frak work. To buy something, make just enough to get by and live life with no rewards? Frak that!
I was able then to make payments on the things that I had and put some away for kids college fund. Now that the salary is gone, the expenses I couldn’t get rid of or reduce, wow such as the house are still there.
Once again, please explain to the class how your such a great freaken financier. and WHY ARE YOU HERE?
Michael D. Adams on February 25, 2009 5:48 pm
It would be best If you all stopped conversing with these coulda/sholda trolls. They are right wing assholes that are just here to enjoy you problems, parrot angry white male radio lines and feel superior. They got theirs while the Republicans were stealing everything that wasn’t nailed down. They want to convince you that it’s your fault for living your life and not knowing that the Greedy Bastards were going to destroy the economy so they can feel superior. Truly evil Republican scum. If you go down, be sure to leave a scorched earth trail for the mortgage holder. Make them miserable and cost them as much money and work as you can.
Midway through the coming depression we will be hunting people like them…
Michael D. Adams on February 25, 2009 6:03 pm
Truly Innocent Victim of BORROWERS
Hey Moderator?, This is a blog to help people save their homes. This guy needs to be romoved and bocked. I can listen to his crap on Angry White Male Radio 24/7. Get him out of here.
Please remove this guy. Truly Innocent Victim of BORROWERS
gup on February 26, 2009 1:02 am
It amazes me that there are still people out there that claim homeowners are “irresponsible” and “bought more than they can afford”. This is BS. I bought a house in San Diego in 2004. I bought WAY BELOW MY MEANS on the outskirts of town. In the last year I have had health problems, a new child, and have lost 2 jobs. We are now dealing with 1/3 of what our take home pay used to be as a family.
So, is this my fault? did I cause this? Don’t get me wrong, I am not a charity case, but to say that I have been irresponsible pisses me off and it is just not the case. There are plently of folks whom are dealing with “the baby being thrown out with the bathwater”. This is not about everyone being irresponsible. For sure, there are some that have been and they are ruining it for the folks that were responsible and conservative. This is effectiving everyone.
Tony on February 26, 2009 5:47 am
@Gup,
BINGO! That’s why I’ve been getting so pissed off. I was being blamed for something I couldnt control. A layoff that started due to others and has rolled to every sector of business.
Michael D. Adams on February 26, 2009 10:14 am
Hi Tony,
Every institution in this once great country has failed everybody but the super rich and their lackeys. These people really need to be required to hold a gun on us so as to at least dignify the transactions. You could jail half of the SEC, Half of the Bankers and 90% of the politicians and justice would still not be done. Fight them tooth and nail and learn about asymmetric and forth generation warfare techniques as applied to business and conflict. Check out http://www.d-n-i.net/dni/. You have to deal with their collections and their legal people a little but go after their executives and anyone in the company you can bother. Also check out Sun Tzu, (The General Samuel B. Griffith translation.) Make allies and try to separate them from their allies. Get your story down and repeat it to anyone who will listen including your political representatives even if they are A**hole Republicans or Blue Dog Democrats. Remain civil but don’t mince words about what they have done an are doing to you. The last 30 years have been the biggest heist in history and the last 8 were armed robbery. Also remember, written communications, especially paper letters eat up much more of their time and energy and give you a record so there won’t be any, “he said, she said” lies on their part.
As Harry Truman said, You don’t have to give them hell, just tell the truth and they’ll think it’s hell.
Commandante Null
Out.
Michael D. Adams on February 26, 2009 10:22 am
Hey Scolds,
Hit the road and leave these people to work out thier problems. That includes you “Dept Free”. Go watch Faux News.
Truly Innocent Victim of BORROWERS on February 26, 2009 11:54 am
For the record, I am not male and definitely not Republican. I hate Fox News and Murdoch and O’Reilly and Hannity and all those assholes. I am an ordinary middle class person who has given a huge amount of time and as much money as I could to the less fortunate and to environmental causes, among other things. And I’ve had my share of hard knocks, too. After a divorce, I went from living in a very small three-bedroom house, very plain old house that I never could afford to furnish or re-model - to a small one-bedroom apartment furnished with hand-me-downs and thrift-shop stuff.
Because you know what? I didn’t have the money to buy out my ex, and I knew I couldn’t afford to pay the mortgage on my own.
So life happens, and I didn’t come crying to anyone else asking for a handout so I could keep my home. I just said, “hey, life happens, sometimes it sucks, but that’s the way it is, and living in a one-bedroom apartment isn’t the end of the world.”
I paid every single dime of my student loans on time - in fact I paid them back early. And this despite the fact that the loan had been sold and I knew they couldn’t produce the note, because they actually had the terms wrong and thought I was done paying when I had another $6,000 to go. Stupid honest LIBERAL DEMOCRAT that I am, I paid every dime I owed when I could have gotten away with not paying 6k. And then I gradually saved and saved and could afford to rent a larger, nicer place but never could afford to buy a house.
So stop making assumptions about other people. As I said about/to Tony, I have no problem with someone wanting to keep their house and make arrangements for alternative payment plans if need be and that’s what he is trying to do. He isn’t saying he doesn’t owe the money, he isn’t playing stupid games to try to get out of paying, he isn’t trying to get someone else to foot the bill for him. He is just trying to get his loan modified.
That’s not what the “produce-the-note” thing is about. Those people seem to want to get out of paying entirely, regardless of the impact on others - on people like you! Because guess what? Those people make it all that much harder for the honest people to get loan modifications. They are the ones you should be angry at, not me. Nothing I am doing is making it harder for you to get a loan modification. It is the people trying to get out of paying who are your enemy.
Oh and by the way, this IS the topic of this blog - scroll back up - it is about this “produce-the-note” thing. Which people are using as a tactic to get out of paying the debt. They want to stay in the house, but they don’t want to pay for it.
That is WHY we have a problem, and that is WHY I am angry and you should be too.
lee on February 26, 2009 12:58 pm
banks, mort companies, ceo’s, etc. are NOT to blame (sure, a few bad apples in there). they are all simply following the laws created by the legistative branch of our government. HELLO!!!..none are being prosecuted…just vilified so as to transfer blame away from congress, who directly created and enforced rules that led to this mess. in 2006, executive branch concerns were immediately slapped down by legislative branch….in spite of indisputable evidence to the contrary. back to topic…….’produce the note’ is a delay tactic, not an elimination tactic. we made a ‘good’ loan in 2001, wife got sick in 2006 and we lost our income in 2008. we hope and pray that this tactic will work in time to save our home
Michael D. Adams on February 26, 2009 1:03 pm
Hmmm, usually women are smarter than this. If you are as enlightened as you say you are, why are you parroting the right wing blame line, verbatim, chapter and verse?
I’m angry but I know who to be angry at. You are succumbing to the lowest childish base emotions of human beings and that is why the propagandist own your ass. You’re afraid that someone might get a cookie that you didn’t get. I guess since you’re truly innocent you can cast the first stone.
When the power elite destroyed the economy of this country with their wars and massive greed they destroyed the ability of these borrowers to pay and now the same people want to put them out on the street. [content removed by moderator]
Ever So Sincerely,
Michael D. Adams
Director NPC Intelligence Associates
2711 Belaire Cr.
Doravllle, Ga.
30340
770-457-6758
A proud member of the reality based community.
DebtFree on February 26, 2009 1:23 pm
RE: “Are you seriously trying to say that because I didnt save as much as maybe I should have; thats why I’m where I am now?”
Yes. One should never buy a home without a contingency plan (i.e., savings) for job loss.
As for doing things you want to do, that’s what MONEY is for, not DEBT or CREDIT. If there’s not enough MONEY to do the things you want, you’re living beyond your means.
So far you’ve stated nothing is your fault and also that you have not lived beyond your means; both of which are false.
Why am I here? To talk about housing as home prices continue their slide another 30%.
Gonna-Do-it on February 26, 2009 1:27 pm
@DebtFree - There is no money you moron, its all debit and credit. Read this article for non-propaganda education.
.
.
.
Why Silver Is Money
(Phoenix Silver Summit Workshop Speech)
Silver Stock Report
by Jason Hommel, February 25th, 2009
Welcome. Thank you!
I’m very honored to be here. My name is Jason Hommel. I’m the Editor of the Silver Stock Report. This last year, I started dealing in silver, selling silver, at http://www.seekbullion.com and I learned a lot more about the silver trade.
My speech today is on why silver is money, even though no nation on earth uses silver as money.
In other words, my speech is on why 99.9% of humanity is wrong, and why you are right!
The words that mean “money”, and the words that mean “silver” are the same in most Romance languages. Silver is the only real money that there is. Gold, historically, is just too valuable to use as money if an ounce of gold is worth a year’s salary, or a modest home. Even at today’s prices, as you know, they don’t make $1000 bills!
Throughout history, Silver has been used as money in more times in more places than gold.
Silver is just not used as money today, except as a store of value.
Silver does not circulate, but that does not mean it’s not money.
Most people don’t want to know about silver, or even dollars.
Most people don’t even want to know about the silver price, which is the ratio between silver and dollars.
Instead, people just want to GROW THEIR OWN MONEY.
I’ve been a success in numerous things, and a failure too. One thing I’ve learned is that if you want to be a success, you have to study hard, and know your subject, and then, you are much more likely to be a success.
That’s three topics of study then:
The first topic is GROWTH which includes compound interest and exponential growth, or following the first commandment, “to be fruitful and multiply”.
The second topic is “YOUR OWN”. People don’t seem to know that possession is 9/10ths of the law. If you want to grow YOUR money, be sure it belongs to you. That means no futures, no certificates, no options, no ETF’s, no third party storage programs. You have to actually own the real stuff. You have to hold it in your hot sweaty hands, lift it yourself, or hire your sons or some relative to lift and lock it up in your own safe for you.
Finally, the third topic, the topic of this talk, which is: Money!
So, if you want to MAKE MONEY, you’d better first understand the subject, and know what money actually is!
I’ve asked many experts; and they are nearly unanimous on one thing. They tell me, “Don’t try to predict the dollar price of silver; because you will look like an idiot, you will most likely be wrong. And it will damage your credibility. And if silver is going past $1000/oz., why bother to say it before it happens. Just grow wealthy, and be happy.”
But I don’t listen to bad advice. See, I’d rather help people. Second, if I don’t have any credibility, or if I don’t care if I have any credibility, or if I think no man should ever have any credibility, then I have nothing to lose!
So, here it is–the opinion I have that everyone wants to know, and what some experts are uncomfortable in saying:
I think silver will head beyond $10,000/oz., in less than 15 years. And I’ll tell you why.
Basically, that’s the price if all paper money were to be backed by silver and gold again. That’s the price if the dollar were falling to zero, if they stopped printing all money tomorrow, and managed to back up every dollar with all the U.S. gold, and if the silver/gold ratio returned to about 10:1.
We could get to that price in about 15 years, if silver merely rises about 50% per year for 15 years in a row. That’s perfectly possible. It would merely be a mix of a growth rate in silver’s value, going up only about 20 times in value, and the rest of the gains would be due to a decline in the dollar’s value, happening at the same time.
There are many, many fundamental reasons why silver will go up in value. 10,000 reasons, since there are probably 10,000 industrial applications that use silver.
But it’s my job to focus, and help you focus, on the big reasons, or biggest reasons.
Some of the big reasons are the story put out by GATA, the Gold Anti-Trust Action Committee. They have shown that the central banks of the world have loaned or leased about 15,000 tonnes of gold, out of about 33,000 tonnes. Gold is counted as “on the books”, but it is no longer in the vault. It’s an unsustainable manipulation or deception, and when it ends, gold will skyrocket.
Ted Butler has also written great things about the excessive short position in the futures markets. When that manipulation or deception ends, silver will skyrocket.
And I mostly agree.
But I want to talk about the biggest fraud of all, the biggest deception out there.
The biggest deception is so big, it has warped the thinking of most everyone in this room, including myself.
It’s very difficult to explain a deception. By definition, if you are deceived, you don’t know you are deceived. That’s the nature of a deception.
The other problem about deceptions is that lies can be exposed rather quickly.
Frauds fail rather suddenly and unexpectedly.
The biggest deception, the biggest fraud — is paper money.
That’s because PEOPLE TODAY DO NOT EVEN KNOW WHAT MONEY IS.
I’ve struggled to define money; it took me several years!
Some say what you spend is money, or that you buy things with money. Or that currency is money. Others say the dollar is defined as a certain amount of silver in the constitution, and that’s it; nothing more.
The definition of words changes over time. But essential concepts and truths do not.
Remember, the words for silver and money are the same in many languages.
Please give me your attention while I talk about the Desirable features of money, my definition that I’ve been working on.
To function as money, a monetary item should possess a number of features:
To be a medium of exchange:
* It should have liquidity, and be easily tradeable, with a low spread between the prices to buy and sell, in other words, a low transaction cost.
* It should be easily transportable; precious metals have a high value to weight ratio. This is why oil, coal, or water are not suitable as money even though they are valuable.
* It should be durable. Gold or silver coins are often mixed with 10% copper to improve durability, and coins are made with ridges around the rim to prevent coin shaving or debasement.
To be a unit of account:
* It should be divisible into small units without destroying its value; precious metals can be coined from bars, or melted down into bars again, with a low percentage cost. This is why leather, or live animals are not suitable as money.
* It should be fungible: that is, one unit or piece must be equivalent to another, which is why diamonds, works of art or real estate are not suitable as money.
* It must be a specific weight, or measure, or size to be verifiably countable. You must be able to weigh, measure, and count, your unit of account!
To be a store of value:
* It should be long lasting, durable, it must not be perishable or subject to decay. This is why food items, expensive spices, or even fine silks or oriental rugs, are not generally suitable as money.
* It should have a stable value.
* It should be difficult to counterfeit, and the genuine must be easily recognizable.
PROMISES THAT CAN DEFAULT AND GO TO ZERO VALUE ARE NOT A STORE OF VALUE!
PROMISES THAT CAN DEFAULT AND GO TO ZERO VALUE ARE NOT A STORE OF VALUE!
That means no ETFs, no futures contracts, no silver certificates, no bullion accounts, no storage programs, none of that nonsense!
To be anonymous:
* Money should not be subject to government tracking
* It should be useable for purchases in a black market
* It should not require equipment, tools or electricity to use
* It should not require a mark, or image, to be valuable, but rather, be a just weight, and measure.
So, if you want to “MAKE MONEY”, YOU SHOULD TRY TO ACQUIRE THINGS THAT HAVE THE ABOVE CHARACTERISTICS! I think silver is best, especially because silver is cheap, and will be a great store of value.
When I compare things, I compare fundamentals.
There are two ways to approach the fundamentals: first, the supply and demand: and second, the nature of the thing.
So, for two items, silver and dollars, that’s 4 areas of study.
supply and demand of silver, and of dollars, and
the nature of silver, and the nature of dollars.
1. Lets look at the nature of silver. Like gold, silver has all the properties of money, that we just examined and defined, above.
SILVER, SINCE 2003, HAS BEEN A GREAT STORE OF VALUE; actually increasing in value at a much faster rate than the stock market or bonds.
2. What is the nature of dollars?
Dollars are falling and failing as a store of value. A few years ago, many commodity prices went up 1000%, ten fold!
Are dollars liquid? Yes, you can make change for zero cost, and exchange a $10 for two $5 bills. But there are banking hold times as long as 3 weeks on checks. And you cannot convert dollars to silver very easily; especially if no silver is available at your local coin shop.
There is about a 7% spread for silver between the cost to buy and sell it. But is the 7% a spread on silver, or is it really a spread on dollars? There is a VAT of 17% on silver in most of Europe. Is that a tax on silver, or is it a disincentive or penalty on selling the Euro?
Durable? Cash can go up in flames, or go to zero value.
Stable value? No; the ratio of silver in dollars is changing.
Dollars are not rare; not difficult to obtain; & are going down in value.
Dollars are easy to counterfeit; and $100 bills are not always accepted overseas. Even Star buck’s will not take a $100 bill.
Dollars are traceable. There are numbers all over the place; both on the money, and on your account.
In essence: dollars are fraud. They were a promise to pay in silver. The promise was broken. They are not a just weight and measure.
Dollars are a unit of account, with no accounting!
Dollars are not essentially money. At best, they are the current medium of exchange–that’s only 1 out of 4 major things that money needs to be, and they don’t even do that job well, due to banking hold times, and income taxes!
A promise is not the same thing as having received what was promised!
If people could be happy with mere promises, I’d never have to spend a dime on my kids! Even kids know the difference!
I feel stupid for having to point it out, but paper dollars are not money.
People will actually argue with me over this. But paper is not money.
It’s not even the ghost of money. It’s not even a promise to pay in money, like it used to be.
Clearly, a promise to pay money, and the actual money, cannot be the same thing!
And when one is no longer even a promise to pay money, that’s even further removed from being money!
We may call dollars money; we may think of dollars as money; but we are using the word “money” wrong; or we just do not understand what the word “money” means; as I’ve explained.
For many people in the world, the word “money” means the same thing as silver.
3. So, let examine the supply and demand of silver.
There is Zero demand for silver as a medium of exchange– it is not really used as a currency anywhere in the world.
There is almost Zero demand for silver as a unit of account–it is not used for debt in most of the world. (Except by a few traders in the futures markets.)
There is now a small, but rapidly growing demand for silver as a store of value. Last year, it was 40 million ounces. This year, investment demand is perhaps up to 100 million oz/year?
I’m using silver as MY store of value, and as MY unit of account. If I acquire more silver, I consider myself to be successful.
Most of the demand for silver today is for industry, jewelry, & photography.
More than is produced each year.
That does not leave much room for investment, or monetary demand.
The Silver ETF has acquired 253 million oz. That was surprising. I don’t think they have any silver backing it up.
JP Morgan is the custodian! JP Morgan was fingered as the last remaining silver short at COMEX! That’s the biggest conflict of interest that there could be!
The amount of actual silver available for investment has been variously estimated as between 60 million to 600 million oz. Or as much as 4 billion oz. if you include all silver jewelry and flatware and tableware.
4. Finally. Lets look at the supply and demand of dollars.
$50 trillion world bond market.
$50 trillion world paper money supply.
That’s $100 trillion of paper money.
The world derivatives market is worth close to 1 quadrillion, or 1000 trillion.
$1000 trillion is about a million times larger than 1000 million ounces of silver.
It is impossible to exchange all the promises for payment.
But the world tends to try to cash out all at once.
People have asked me, do I think silver is a “once in a lifetime” opportunity?
No, I think it’s a “once in human history” opportunity, with no prior historic examples. Never before have conditions like today ever existed.
1. We have consumed nearly all the silver in the world.
2. We continue to consume more than we mine.
3. The entire world has totally abandoned silver as money.
But whether you know it, or can accept it, silver is money. And nothing else is.
When gold becomes too expensive, and when paper money fails, silver is the only thing left to use as money.
One of the best books ever written on trading, and highly regarded by many traders today, is “Reminiscences of a Stock Market Operator” by Jessie Livermore. In the book, he talks about how the markets totally stopped trading for up to nine months at a time during war in the early 1900’s. I know several millionaires out there, in this audience, who think they will be protected in a monetary collapse, because they have brokerage accounts and silver stocks. But nothing can replace real silver that you may need to spend on food during a time period of a market crisis. Everyone here should have at least $5000 worth of silver.
Two years ago, I advised people to clean out the local coin shops. Last year, that happened. So, that’s why I started dealing in silver, to help provide it, when you can’t get any, because so many dealers are sold out!
Before I conclude, I want to mention the big thing I learned about the silver market in the last year. I always thought that monetary demand for silver would cause the price to rise. That’s what happened with rising premiums in the silver investor market for bars and coins. But premiums rose, and silver prices did not.
That’s because silver investment demand is still so small, about 10% of the market.
Also, I did not realize that the silver dealers and mints were in such bad shape from the 27-year bear market in the metals. Nearly half of them ARE bankrupt. Not maybe, ARE. If you buy from a dealer, chances are now about 50/50 that you will be scammed with a very delayed delivery, which means they are floating on your money because they ARE bankrupt.
In fact, all the most heavy bullion dealers who are the biggest advertisers ARE probably bankrupt.
And if you just try to “buy silver” and don’t know to avoid the ETF’s and all the other paper silver scams, you are likely to be scammed about 80-90% of the time. It’s rough. That’s what makes and marks a market bottom.
I barely got my silver out of one very reputable mint that said it would be 3 weeks, which turned into 8 weeks, and I still only got 1/3 of my silver minted after 8 weeks. And that’s typical now. If the mints are scamming me, they sure are scamming the other dealers, and other customers.
And that’s why I ship “same day” so that if I do get scammed with a default, you won’t be.
Go to the bank, get your cash, and get your silver. And get a safe, and bolt it to your garage floor, or put it in your closet.
Again, if you want to grow wealthy, you must know about growth, you must make sure you are growing your own wealth, and you better be sure you know what money is.
So get your silver!
At http://www.seekbullion.com
Thank you.
Sincerely,
Jason Hommel
DebtFree on February 26, 2009 1:29 pm
RE: “A proud member of the reality based community.”
One who posts their address and phone number on the Internet is much farther from “reality” than they believe.
Michael D. Adams on February 26, 2009 1:42 pm
“Why am I here? To talk about housing as home prices continue their slide another 30%.”
No, you’re here to feel superior and treat people in trouble as children. That’s why you and Truly Innocent VICTM use parental terms like “Should” constantly.
Try that crap in front a live adult who’s home is under threat sometimes instead of hiding behind a keyboard and see what happens.
Cowardly Scolds and Trolls you are.
DebtFree on February 26, 2009 1:50 pm
RE: “No, you’re here to feel superior and treat people in trouble as children.”
Perhaps if people acted as adults, and took responsibility for their own actions, they wouldn’t be treated as children.
I do not feel superior or inferior, but simply respond to what is posted.
Someone saying “through no fault of my own” and “I didn’t live beyond my means” as they ran up debt and have no savings are indeed acting like children.
Michael D. Adams on February 26, 2009 1:51 pm
RE: “A proud member of the reality based community.”
One who posts their address and phone number on the Internet is much farther from “reality” than they believe.
Or perhaps some of us are not cowardly American Bed-wetters who hide behind pseudonyms based on taunts.
I’m starting to wonder if you and your “Innocent” fiend are not working with a lobbyist or public relations firm hired by the banksters. That’s how the Israelis have been handling discussions of their war crimes on the Internet lately. I think I’ll investigate this blog and see what turns up.
Mike (You know who I am and where I live.)Adams
DebtFree on February 26, 2009 1:55 pm
It appears one of these is needed:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ManWearingTinFoilHat.jpg
DebtFree on February 26, 2009 1:56 pm
Fascism rears its ugly head:
“This guy needs to be romoved and bocked.”
“I think I’ll investigate this blog and see what turns up.”
Michael D. Adams on February 26, 2009 2:47 pm
You have an incredible grasp of what passes for the current wisdom. And, you’ve totally reinforced all my points. You win the Polly Award for this week. Send your address and NPC Intelligence associates will send you your prize. A cracker for Polly the Talking Points Parrot.
I’m over this “blog” and anyone who is seriously trying to save their home needs to get over it now and leave this bridge to the Ugly Propaganda Trolls.
BTW. You’re so well informed you don’t need to read the “14 Defining Characteristics of Fascism” by Dr. Lawerence J. Britt. Oh yeah, the invesgation is still on. I love busting corporate shills.
Mark Strohecker on February 27, 2009 7:02 pm
Really don’t know where to start.Well i am with the greatest of them all EMC-Lasalle yeah right.I am a single father raising two children on his own and on disibility.I have been fighting with Lasalle-emc i think there somehow linked for a year now.I filed for a chapter 13 and it was dismissed because they were to greedy and wanting more money and i couldn’t afford it.So i tried and then the forclosure started again and now i have a sheriff sale set for march 11th.I saw this produce the note thing and whats weird noone in pa heard about it.Well i still can file for a chapter 13 again but i filed on my own at the court house a request for production of document (produce the note)yesterday.I also requested for a stay from sheriff sale until the outcome of this note thing.Well i think the judge granted me the stay.Hope he did.Then i watched this lady who was with EMC mortage and did the note thing and they wrot her a letter saying they either lost it or it was destroyed.I can only hope and pray it goes my way.Cause for one these damn lenders brought this on themselves and then they want bailed out but don’t want to help others out.I mean what do i do?Do i really need a attorney for this?
About time on February 27, 2009 8:33 pm
I would never wish someone’s future to the streets. That is truly playing with a very dangerous game of Karma!!! Be careful
Michael D. Adams on February 28, 2009 11:12 am
Wow,
Diane or other “Moderators(s)” are still editing 48 hours after being busted. It’s become obvious that the “Blame the Borrowers”, Clique are professional spin meisters and the “moderators” are them, or are in bed with them (or her) in the singular. There is a missing “dialog” transaction from yesterday that stylistic analysis indicates both sides were written by the same person. There are also the same indications that some of the different screen names of the clique are the same person. Veeeery Interesting.
To Paraphrase Pogo, “We have met the enemy, and she is you.”.
mike on February 28, 2009 10:06 pm
The morgage note is sold to another bank / investor about ten days after the bowwer signes it???????
SO THE NOTE HAS BEEN PAYED. THE TERMS OF THE NOTE / CONTRACT HAVE BEEN SATISFIED.
SO THESE BANKS /INVESTORS MAKE THOUSANDS ON HOMEOWNERS. THE NOTE IN MAY CASES ARE SOLD OVER AND OVER AGAIN. IN A LAWFUL CONTRACT ALL PARTIES ARE OBLIGATED TO THE TEARMS OF THE CONTRACT……..SO WHEN THE “NOTE” IS SOLD YOUR OBLIGATION TO THE PARTY IS SATISFIED.
YOU HAVE NO OBLIGATION TO THE BUYER OF THE NOTE.
MANY NOTES ARE BUNDLED AND SOLD SO THE NOTE IS LOST.
MAY LENDERS FILE WITH THE COURT FOR A LOST / DAMAGED NOTE (TO RECREATE THE NOTE).
THE BANKS / MORGAGE COMPANIES ARE ATTEMPTING TO FRAUDULENLY FABRICATE SECURETY INSTUMENTS. FIGHT FOR YOUR HOME. FILE A LAWSUIT (QUIET TITTLE ACTION) MAKE THEM PROVE THERE STANDING PRODUCE THE ORIGINAL BLUE INK NOTE.
MIKE
Obama on March 10, 2009 12:09 am
MIKE HAS IT RIGHT…..
Truth is, they never loaned you anything anyway.
Imagine you come to me for a $10,000 loan. I give it to you for something in return. You have nothing but a ring worth $10,000. I take that ring and sell it for $10,000 and give you the money. Now you have to pay me intrest monthly.
That ring is the note. You gave them someting of value. Because of your signature on that note they have been given the authority to create money from thin air. Its not printed money. Just money on a spread sheet.
OK, now we know they have already been paid for the loan because they sold it as a security. So he who owns the securty is the one who truly owns your loan. But they still claim it as a asset in their spreadsheet and collect from you monthly as a double dip proffit. The government knows this. TAX TAX TAX TAX at every transaction and monthly payment. ALONG COMES THE BAILOUT…. TOXIC ASSETS? Thats an oxymoron. Its only toxic because they truly cant prove they own it. Because they dont. The only hope they have is that you walk out wilfully and they take it on an abandonment. Or they scam you in the court system.
Its not even about the house. You should all be extreemly pissed about this scam of a credit system that the rich bankers (money trust) and LAWYER (liars) have created by corrupting our elected officials to enslave the people through debt. They get richer, more powerfull and you contunue to lose more of your rights and freedoms.
Jessica Simon on March 11, 2009 6:31 pm
Here is a bunch of videos that I found that explain how to go about the ‘produce the note’ strategy in a brain-dead simple way:
http://www.butasforme.com/2009/03/11/produce-the-note/
Craig on March 17, 2009 5:31 pm
No, Actually Mike is Wrong. Security in an item is not sale of the item.
Anyhow this website had an interesting and intelligent discussion on it regarding producing the note: http://www.eagledepot.com/
Craig
nabesharon on March 21, 2009 4:53 pm
Are you aware that the UCC says that banks or anyone that represents this, ie. servicing company’s cannot not own real property. Do you notice when a foreclosure sale is taking place it is usually on the court steps and not in the court. Wonder why ? Because no bank can own real property. Read the uniform commercial code. If they do they can e imprisoned for 34 years. Read it.
dennis on April 14, 2009 2:15 pm
Nabesharon,
what section is that under where banks cannot own real property in the ucc?
Thanks
Dennis
Accountability on April 24, 2009 12:23 am
If your child asks you if he/she can borrow the SUV and you say yes, and your child takes it for a spin and crashes it, who is to blame? The child for being “irrisponsible”? Or the parent for allowing the child to take the SUV? I say the parent.
On this same premise, I blame the banks for all this. It was, and is the banks responsibility to lend wisely. The borrowers are simply human beings. If they recieved fraudulent applications then they should have checked into them, after all it’s your money they are lending out. But then again it didn’t matter to them, they just wanted to make a loan! Then they basically used that money in a giant pyramid scheme just like Mr. Madoff. But I don’t see anyone here telling a Madoff investor they were irresponsible. The banks caused this, period. So if someone can go to court and fight the banks against foreclosure that’s good. At very least it will make these banks be more responsible with our money in the future, and they need to cross their t’s and dot the i’s. Just like it’s supposed to be.
Gary White on April 26, 2009 6:12 am
Interesting discussion. Bank that sell the notes, paper whatever you wish to refer to it as…still collect the payments. The banks collect a service fee for the collection process.
People have to protect themselves. So blindly signing anything because a lender says this is good for you is like enrolling in a scientific experiment, going to Vegas you are rolling the dice.
Many people were led down the golden path and others were working the system. They made one payment and stayed rent free for a year. Producing the note is another form of working the system. Lender don’t own the property under the title system they own liens on the property which gives them rights when a borrower defaults.
There are many ways to stop foreclosure. I must take a moment and say their have been some great people lose their homes because of no fault of their own. Some has lost their job and the house payment was based on two incomes. A divorce, health, bankruptcy and death also play unfortunate parts in the loss of homes. This is an American tragedy.
How the rules of lending were relaxed is only part of the story. Do you remember when you had to have a percentage down? Then you didn’t need anything down. What does a family really have to risk with nothing down? Credit they used stated income. This is much deeper than a “Show me the NOTE.
Nice discussion.
Jason on May 13, 2009 2:07 pm
My family, father and mother, refinanced their home for home improvements and to pay off several credit card debts, a year before the failure of the economy and housing crysis came into the national spotlight. 2 months after the refi, the loan fell into the hands of Deutsche bank, and the house (their place of residence) began recieving daily calls from ‘homeq’, (who was servicing this) loan Even before the due date of payments. The very first payment was rejected and sent back (tacked on late fees up to 300 dollars) for having the wrong payment amount. The requested payment amount was pennies off although the amount paid was exactly what was on the statement. 2 weeks later my father recieved a letter of default. This was prevented by paying up 2 payments AND more late fees.
Assuming this accurance a 1 time happenings, We continued to make 2 more payments, only to have another one usps back to us, with a notice that full payment would be due 2 days prior to recieving the returned payment in the mail. This has gone on now for almost 18 months, my fathers business and personal credit rating is Ruined due to the 4+ defaults/foreclosure attempts, and the Aggressive homeq continues its hourly barrage on our phones.
My family never did business with deutsche nor homeq. The bank we dealt with, put us into this situation in concert with Deutsche. This should be criminal, and further more we have no security that if we do manage to survive long enough to pay off this loan, that we are safe from another debtee trying to claim the loan.
Deutsche bank used underhanded tactics to harvest home mortgages. Families who otherwise were in good shape are now financially burdened and with dire credit scores. No one should feel remorse towards pursuing a lawful resolution against these predator banks, who themselves use unlawful tactics against homeowners.
Personally I would love to see some people spend a great deal of prison time for the fraud committed by these banks against the homeowning consumers in America. Stealing the American dream and ruining the Peoples trust in financial institutions will have lasting Damages to our economy that no amount of Stimulus will solve.
Bankruptcy Lawyer on May 14, 2009 12:08 pm
What Jason, above, is describing sounds like predatory lending. The loan servicer should not be harassing your family in this way. There is an article here http://www.lawfirms.com/resources/real-estate/mortgages/predatory-loan-practices.htm that describes predatory lending practices in some detail. You may want to do some further research into what constitutes mortgage fraud as well.
Eldina on May 14, 2009 3:57 pm
I tried to get the original contract from the mortgage company 2 years ago. I don’t know what contract they have, since I have 3 different versions. The estimate I believed I signed, the copy of the contract different from the estimate- then I contacted the original mortgage company I signed the contract with, and their contract are totally different from the 2 others.
I agree with Jason and I’m waiting for the predatory lenders to go to jail for their frauds and I’m also waiting for the victim to be repaid for not being protected from those criminals
george on May 15, 2009 2:22 pm
I think this board is doing a great service for those in foreclosures or at the verge of experiencing one. Several posting have created some real knowledge based options. I just read an article that reported that a judge in New York ruled against a lender for violating predatory lending laws in that state and ruled that the lender refunded all the homeowners mortgage payments and attorneys’ fees. Of course for a homeowner to fight the lender is an uphill battle, because they have a lot more money to work with. Here is the page the story was found: http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/Story?id=4583176&page=1
Chrissy on June 9, 2009 1:34 am
I dont feel one ounce of guilt when it comes to this defense sending all the banks and mortgage companies into freefall. With what they all did to the US economy and how they want us as lenders to follow their requirements of the mortgage to the letter of the law but when it comes to them haveing to keep propper documents and do what is required for them to proceed with foreclosure then they want the laws to not apply to them. How dare they I hope they all get taken to the cleaners. I hope that the whole banking system falls under the great so called protection of the government oh yea wait they now can even pay thier own bills sounds like the fleacing of america and opening the door to socialism Welcome to the old USSR hope you dont mind waiting 3 hours in line for a loaf of bread. Oh yea and by the way we are using the Produce the note defense and it is working just as they have said it would way to go COnsumerwarningnetwork.com we all owe you our lives thanks again please let us know if you to are using it nad if you need any help in doing so.
Brian on June 13, 2009 8:52 pm
I just don’t get it I am sitting here jobless due to the economic status, bills coming out of my ears, cant afford my mortgage, and Obama is giving all this money to the people who got us in this situation in the first place? Does that really make sense? Cause as far as I’m concerned I will use Produce the Note, however I think the economy would have been better off to give each and every hard working household who never skipped out on their taxes a big portion of the money he gave them for the “so-called bailout” to us to put back in the economy instead of the crooks who got us here in the first place because I sure could use 10 or 20 grand right now to bail me out! How is that helping the Americans?????? And on top of that all the bill collectors that call me and harass are all from India what is this world coming to????
John Gregory on June 16, 2009 6:45 pm
And don’t forget that these “lenders” never lent anything. By law they can’t lend their own funds or those of depositors. So what’s customarily called a “loan” was actually created out of thin air based on a “borrower’s” signature on a promissory note. It’s no wonder most of these folks were tempted to engage in blatant and rampant fraud - not the least of which has been repeatedly selling their instruments through derivatives so as to multiply the windfall.
Christina on June 16, 2009 7:47 pm
Great point John Gredory. The fact that a lender gives a barrow the money to pay for a property is taken on as a thin air note against the banks negutive assit files. SO the fact that they say they should not be held to what the law is (by asking the court to re establish the note) is not fair you know full well that they expect us as the borrow to follow the law with no exception and if we dont then they screw it to us not only in fines but also by hurting our credit and all the time that this is going on they continue to make more funny money and work the US economy into the groud forcing us the tax payer to bail them out. Oh but because its the Federal govermnet using my and your money to make them whole again we are not able to have a say like a stockholder would as to how they go about forcing us out of our homes while they continue to give their CEO big bonuses and stocks in a company they know will fail ????? what is wrong with this I will tell you you cant walkinto your local bank and get a loan on who you are or what you have anymore. Its all ran by the federal government. I challenge anyone to show me one program ran by the federal goverment that actully saved the tax payers money or actully produced a better outcome then would have been by a free market. I saw its time to tell Washington where they can go and who they can take with them BARNEY FRANK !!!!!! (freddy mac Fanny Mea) did no one see that bag of bullshit lies out of that pigs mouth ????
I am sorry if it seems like I am harsh but this country is going down the tubes to socialism and I for one will never pay one more red cent to fund the out of control spending in washington. I fully support the terms and actions of states such as Texas. Down with the federal control we know what is best for our state and local operation not Washington !!!!!!!!
Brian on June 16, 2009 8:50 pm
That is totally true and I could’nt have said it better myself! If we all thought more like us the world would not be as screwed up as it is, just think of our kids that’s the ones I really feel sorry for cause when were the only ones fighting for our rights. I don’t think the GOV knows there ass from a whole in the ground all they are worried about is buying multi million dollar homes to live in and not just one, several and then raising taxes and expecting the taxpayers to pay for it all. Its just not right!!!! This whole world GOV is a so called shit-bag as you called it and you could’nt have said it better!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Brian on June 16, 2009 9:16 pm
And another thing when myself and my signifigant other moved into our house and got our mortgage in the fiscal year of NOV 2007 we got our house for 86,000 dollars, we initially put a down payment of almost 19,000 dollars out of our pocket just to get the mortgage and now they want to press a forclosure after just two months of being backed up on our mortgage due to my current unemployment status. For that I would have just kept my 19,000 dollars in my pocket and I would have the money to pay it. Does that make sense? And all the interest you have to pay just to get a mortgage is just rediculous. Plus we have never missed a payment until now talk about a bunch of money hungry lowlife slumlords, we have paid almost 10,000 dollars and only built 1400 dollars worth of equity can you see the wrong here !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Brian on June 16, 2009 9:19 pm
I think it is SCAMULATE instead of stimulate cause the only stimulation I have got is in my nerves!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Moe Bedard on July 10, 2009 12:40 pm
While this theory sounds great in practice, it has yet to produce any meaningful long lasting results for homeowners. Hopefully cases like Richard Davet in Ohio will help others fight.
Gonna-Do-it on July 11, 2009 6:08 am
Here is my 2nd request letter to “Produce the Note”:
————
Mailed by: USPS Certified Mail-Return Receipt: Article # {REDACTED}
Date: 11 July, 2009
TO: Aurora Loan Services
2617 College Park
P.O. Box 1706
Scottsbluff, NE 69363-1706
Re: My second request; now demanding a copy of the Promissory Note
Name: {REDACTED}
Property Address: {REDACTED}
Account Number: {REDACTED}
Gentlemen,
I am the owner of certain real property located at {REDACTED}, Nevada; which is security for the loan #, {REDACTED}, made by First Magnus Financial Corporation to me on October 25, 2005.
I am in receipt of your reply letter dated July 01. 2009 and the included document. In my previous letter to you, dated 25 June, 2009 I requested a copy of the Promissory Note. The document you sent to me on July 01, 2009 is merely a print of a scanned image, that is stored in a computer somewhere.
Perhaps I did not make my important requirement exactly clear in my previous letter. With this letter, I will re-state my requirements with absolutely unmistakable clarity and intent.
I intend to establish completely and unequivocally that you are the “True Owner in Due Course” or the agent of the “True Owner in Due Course” of my Promissory Note, or that you are not.
If your company is considering a foreclosure action against me and my property you must be fully aware that Original Documents are REQUIRED in Foreclosure as sole method to verify Validity and Authenticity. Courts in Federal and State Jurisdictions have upheld that Original Documents must be provided in order to validate and authenticate the claims, when disputed by any of the parties involved. If you should initiate a foreclosure action, I intend to file in court lawsuit to stay of that foreclosure action until the original ink-signed document, my Promissory Note, is presented.
I urgently require a recent xerographic reproduction of the ORIGINAL INK-SIGNED Promissory Note that you must have in your physical possession. A downloaded and printed image of a data record is not acceptable. If you believe that such a data record is an acceptable and lawful substitute for the actual, real, original, ink-signed Promissory Note, please let me know and I will be delighted to mail to you 1,870 prints of a scanned US $100 bill, tendered for acceptance by you as payment in full to discharge the $187,000.00 debt.
I also need to ascertain if the Note was sold, transferred, or collateralized with other pools of loans or “securitized.” I must determine if there are any other claims or parties that may have claims, prior to any Foreclosure being complete. There must be a proper chain of ownership in order to confirm the claims of the parties involved.
For that end, I also now require a trail of assignments that documents all sales and transfers of ownership interest in the Note which may have occurred since I signed that document. Please also include with that documentation a trail of assignments of all the parties to the Deed of Trust relating to this Promissory Note.
As you must be well aware, The courts have upheld that a Deed of Trust and a Mortgage Note CANNOT be traded or sold separately. Federal and State Courts have also upheld that the power of sale, cannot be conferred separately from the ownership of the debt itself.
I also require any documentation that you, or the “True Owner in Due Course”, have which relates to any “securitation” of my Note. Please also provide any additional documentation if that security instrument was ever written off as a complete loss, and the Holder was made whole via any insurance policies, or “bail-outs”.
Please also be aware of this recent ( March 31, 2009 ) ruling in Nevada:
http://www.nvb.uscourts.gov/Opinions/Riegle/07-16226%20Opinion.pdf
You are hereby REQUIRED to produce for my inspection within ten days the Promissory Note which I signed on 25 October, 2005. Said Note is evidence of that loan.
This is my second request; now a demand for this essential document.
You may consider this to be a “Qualified Written Request” for production of the required documents.
You shall mail a copy of the above Promissory Note and other items to my usual mailing address:
{REDACTED}
If you have any questions regarding this demand, please call me at {REDACTED}.
Sincerely,
{REDACTED}
MRSA Treatment on July 20, 2009 5:12 pm
I think this still sounds like a cop out to why we’re in the forclosure mess - the entire system has been too lenient on what people can afford, and too many people got over extended. Our whole government is based upon debt as well - a very good role model of complacency. I hope we can get things turned around soon.
John Frederick on July 25, 2009 12:52 pm
Homeq servicing claims when you reaffirm your mtg you have to make 9 months worth payments before you can reapply. no where in the contract does it state you have to make 9 months worth of payments, before you could reapply for another reaffirmation. deustche bank owns my mortgage. any replies can be sent to me at my email address…jfrede3382@aol.com
100 Mortgage on August 14, 2009 10:19 am
I think it is very good news that companies and banks are trying to reach arrangements rather than foreclosing on people as that helps no one.
Release Equity on August 22, 2009 6:54 am
Very useful info, always best to closely evaluate your actions before you jump.
mobilephones on August 22, 2009 7:05 am
Lets hope they take a firm and helpful stance on this.
Rocky Mortgage on August 23, 2009 3:17 pm
You cannot foreclose on someone who’s fault this total mess isn’t, how can the banks sleep at night else?
peter long on August 28, 2009 6:03 pm
So what about renting the property out and stalling the foreclosure since the bank can’t produce the note? Also, any idea what happens if the bank cannot produce the note. Can they ever foreclose?
Who Owns Your Mortgage? Ask Them to Produce the Note | Free FHA Loan Advice on September 23, 2009 5:17 am
[...] June, we wrote a blog post “Foreclosure Fighting Words: Produce the Note.” The post was met with glee from hurting homeowners while others said it was illegal to do [...]
Free Loan Modification Kit on October 1, 2009 4:54 pm
This may delay the process a little bit, but I do not believe this defense will get you out of paying your mortgage balance…
Pay As You Go MobilePhones on October 6, 2009 4:10 am
That’s not good, how can they justify this?
100 Mortgage on October 6, 2009 4:10 am
Seems a bit strange
Buy to let on October 19, 2009 11:11 am
They will want their money back in the end.
release equity on October 21, 2009 3:57 pm
Lots of foreclosures out there, now we know why.
Lucy on November 3, 2009 6:23 am
All very difficult and tender at the moment, lets hope it improves soon and the foreclosures reduce.
Jeannette on November 17, 2009 12:18 pm
My husband refinanced back in 2006 so that we could do some remodeling, pay some bills etc. His business was doing well at the time, and I guess we just were naive in thinking that the value of home would go up, work would always be there and that the lender was being truthful with him. I wasn’t with my husband at the time he refinance (even tho we were married) however, they put him in an ARM with a balloonrate- not the loan that had been discussed with my husband and lending prior to the signing. When he got there, lender- which was really a mortgage broker- said there were changes and never explained them…just had him sign. Stupid on my husbands part…however, a year later, when the mortgage started going up from $1900 to a whopping $3100, we tried to pay it for several months and tried to refi again and told we couldn’t. I then realized there were “right to cancel” documents with my name on them…apparantely signed by me, that I had never seen or signed before in my life!!!! We are now in foreclosure, my husbands business- which is in construction is barely making it, we have 2 children and living day to day. We had contacted Consumer Credit, they did nothing, expcept delay the Sheriffs sale. First Frankin came up with a $6,000 a month re-modication plan! HA!!! now they are trying to re-work numbers based on our new situation…new jobs etc..However, they are not contacted us in a few months, and noone, including Consumber Credit has any answers for us. We noticed also, that even though First Franklin is acting as our lender and trying to work out a loan, the paperwork says Deutsch Bank has our loan and was named in the Sheriffs sale documents. I want them to produce original note, but does anyone think we can sue for fraud, based on documents signed and submitted without my presence??????
jason on November 24, 2009 2:57 pm
If the bank cant provide the proof of claim “wet ink original contract/note” then there is no debt. The bank in many cases sells the note therefore the bank is not the holder in due coarse, and you where not informed/full disclosure given to this and a 3rd party has the note now. since you have no contract with them either you have no debt, the bank got back the money by selling your note. People need to educate them-self on the money system and KNOW who the true creditor is.